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Historical criticism: "Moving" dates & places

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#46    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

Proclus this is what I picked up reading Proclus in his Commentary on Timaeus


For, according to Heraclilns, he who passes through a region very difficult
of access, will arrive at the Atlantic, mountain, the magnitude of which is said to
be so great by the Kthiopic historians, that it reaches to the a-thcr, and sends forth
a shadow as far as to live thousand stadia. For tin- sun is concealed by it from
the ninth hour of the day till it entirely sets. Nor is this at all wonderful. For.
Athos, a Macedonian mountain, emits a shadow as fur as to Lcmnos, which is
distant from it seven hundred stadia. And Marcellus, who wrote the Ethiopic
history, not only relates that the Atlantic mountain was of such a great height,

Kthiopic historians? Ethiopic? Marcellus? Where is that Ethiopic history? I didnt knew that early Ethiopics had such rich history so that they have had Historians.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#47    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:


On the Egyptians granting the older age to the Phrygians:


So they think that IE were oldest.
I did once stumble upon Phrygians because of Cybele.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#48    Proclus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

View Postthe L, on 04 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Proclus this is what I picked up reading Proclus in his Commentary on Timaeus


For, according to Heraclilns, he who passes through a region very difficult
of access, will arrive at the Atlantic, mountain, the magnitude of which is said to
be so great by the Kthiopic historians, that it reaches to the a-thcr, and sends forth
a shadow as far as to live thousand stadia. For tin- sun is concealed by it from
the ninth hour of the day till it entirely sets. Nor is this at all wonderful. For.
Athos, a Macedonian mountain, emits a shadow as fur as to Lcmnos, which is
distant from it seven hundred stadia. And Marcellus, who wrote the Ethiopic
history, not only relates that the Atlantic mountain was of such a great height,

Kthiopic historians? Ethiopic? Marcellus? Where is that Ethiopic history? I didnt knew that early Ethiopics had such rich history so that they have had Historians.

This ebook is unfortunately a bad OCR scan. The Ehtiopic history by Marcellus is  a lost book. We know only of him because he is mentioned here. Most probably he had no vital information on Plato's Atlantis (how could he have). I recommend to go to a library and find the book there if you do not want to buy it. A good discussion of all these ancient sources is e.g. in Gunnar Rudberg: Atlantis and Syracuse.

Edited by Proclus, 04 January 2013 - 11:02 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#49    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

What about Spartel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartel

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#50    cormac mac airt

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Philology brought to light that Plato not only knew the works of Herodotus (this is anyway clear) but also used them affirmingly in this case. Nobody of the Greeks questioned the dates given by Herodotus. To the contrary. Plato speaks in the Laws of 10000 years +X of age for Egypt. You can rely on this. It's "official" science, not my own idea.

This would not appear to be correct as per Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene (183-184) he makes the Atarantians (Atlanteans) near the Atlas Mountains contemporary with the Garmantians/Garamantes which are only known from c.1000 BC. Obviously this doesn't match Plato's date of c.9600 BC so nothing has been "affirmed".

It's not "official" anything.

From your Post #34:

Quote

Concerning Plato's Atlantis we know for example, that Herodotus' king Menes lived before the date Plato gives for Atlantis.

This is also not in evidence. Herodotus says the following, from Book 2: Euterpe (99):

Quote

Hitherto my own observation and judgment and inquiry are the vouchers for that which I have said; but from this point onwards I am about to tell the history of Egypt according to that which I heard, to which will be added also something of that which I have myself seen.

Of Min, who first became king of Egypt, the priests said that on the one hand he banked off the site of Memphis from the river: for the whole stream of the river used to flow along by the sandy mountain- range on the side of Libya, but Min formed by embankments that bend of the river which lies to the South about a hundred furlongs above Memphis, and thus he dried up the old stream and conducted the river so that it flowed in the middle between the mountains: and even now this bend of the Nile is by the Persians kept under very careful watch, that it may flow in the channel to which it is confined, and the bank is repaired every year; for if the river should break through and overflow in this direction, Memphis would be in danger of being overwhelmed by flood. When this Min, who first became king, had made into dry land the part which was dammed off, on the one hand, I say, he founded in it that city which is now called Memphis; for Memphis too is in the narrow part of Egypt; and outside the city he dug round it on the North and West a lake communicating with the river, for the side towards the East is barred by the Nile itself. Then secondly he established in the city the temple of Hephaistos a great work and most worthy of mention.

http://www.sacred-te...a/hh/hh2090.htm

Nowhere in this does Herodotus place Menes prior to Plato's date for Atlantis. And we know that the Nile has wandered considerably in its course over the last 5000 years, per the following:

The Nile on the move. Bunbury, J. M. and Lutley, K. (2008)

Attached File  Wandering Nile.jpg   169.46K   2 downloads

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#51    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

This ebook is unfortunately a bad OCR scan. The Ehtiopic history by Marcellus is  a lost book. We know only of him because he is mentioned here. Most probably he had no vital information on Plato's Atlantis (how could he have).

How many histories we ve lost. .. :hmm:

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#52    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:17 PM

Sorry. :blush:

Edited by the L, 04 January 2013 - 11:18 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#53    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:46 AM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Philology brought to light that Plato not only knew the works of Herodotus (this is anyway clear) but also used them affirmingly in this case. Nobody of the Greeks questioned the dates given by Herodotus. To the contrary. Plato speaks in the Laws of 10000 years +X of age for Egypt. You can rely on this. It's "official" science, not my own idea.
What's interesting is he wasn't just TOLD he was also SHOWN - he himself was quite amazed when he computed up the years but went along because he had the proof in front of him, the wooden idols made in the likeness of each king.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#54    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:49 AM

View Postthe L, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Do you use Google earth L? Go to Cape Spartel, on the edge of NW Africa, not much there, except a plain and a low hill...then it runs down to the sea, if land was exposed further, I think the land would create a larger land mass around this spot and may have even joined into Spartel Island. Have a look if you can.

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#55    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:49 AM

View Postthe L, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:


You're not serious, right?

Is that little island the size of Libya and Asia combined? Even when you take into account that the assumed dimensions of Libya and Asia were much smaller in ancient times?


#56    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

This ebook is unfortunately a bad OCR scan. The Ehtiopic history by Marcellus is  a lost book. We know only of him because he is mentioned here. Most probably he had no vital information on Plato's Atlantis (how could he have). I recommend to go to a library and find the book there if you do not want to buy it. A good discussion of all these ancient sources is e.g. in Gunnar Rudberg: Atlantis and Syracuse.

This one (?):

http://warburg.sas.a...32559604v.1.pdf


#57    Proclus

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

cormac, would you please read and think twice before answering?  Thank you.

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

This would not appear to be correct as per Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene (183-184) he makes the Atarantians (Atlanteans) near the Atlas Mountains contemporary with the Garmantians/Garamantes which are only known from c.1000 BC. Obviously this doesn't match Plato's date of c.9600 BC so nothing has been "affirmed".
It's not "official" anything.

First, I talk of Herodotus' Menes, and he is (for Herodotus) 11000 + x BC. Nobody can doubt this.
Then you make an assumption only certain Atlantis searchers make - that Herodotus' Atlantians are equal to Plato's Atlantians.
But this is ( 1 ) wrong and ( 2 ) it was not the question here and ( 3 ) you are not an Atlantis searcher!
It is very "official" that Menes as Herodotus saw him comes before Plato's Atlantis. No scientist would deny this. Would be ridiculous.

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Nowhere in this does Herodotus place Menes prior to Plato's date for Atlantis.

Did I ever say that Herodotus himself places Menes prior to Plato's Atlantis? No I did not.
Herodotus simply does not talk at all of Atlantis.
But he gives a number. And this number can be compared to Plato's number.
By whom? By us moderns. (PS: And by Plato who lived after Herodotus!)
Both numbers are wrong, but behind both there could be a distorted reality.

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 January 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

What's interesting is he wasn't just TOLD he was also SHOWN - he himself was quite amazed when he computed up the years but went along because he had the proof in front of him, the wooden idols made in the likeness of each king.

Exactly, The Puzzler, and the scene is considered to be realistic, such idols have been found in masses in Thebes. Only that the genealogy of the priest is a forgery to justify their position in the temple.

View Postthe L, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

What about Spartel?

Not a good idea, I think.

View PostAbramelin, on 05 January 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:


Good link: Download it to your hard drive!
Thank you (I bought a hardcopy years ago ...)

Edited by Proclus, 05 January 2013 - 12:30 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#58    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 January 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

What's interesting is he wasn't just TOLD he was also SHOWN - he himself was quite amazed when he computed up the years but went along because he had the proof in front of him, the wooden idols made in the likeness of each king.

Can you developed that please. I found it realy interesting and  although I thought I knew something everytime I post here I learn that I dont know nothing.

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 January 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Do you use Google earth L?

No. Never have.

View PostAbramelin, on 05 January 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

You're not serious, right?

Is that little island the size of Libya and Asia combined? Even when you take into account that the assumed dimensions of Libya and Asia were much smaller in ancient times?

Maybe their influence is spread over Lybia and Asia.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#59    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

View PostProclus, on 05 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

cormac, would you please read and think twice before answering?  Thank you.



First, I talk of Herodotus' Menes, and he is (for Herodotus) 11000 + x BC. Nobody can doubt this.
Then you make an assumption only certain Atlantis searchers make - that Herodotus' Atlantians are equal to Plato's Atlantians.
But this is ( 1 ) wrong and ( 2 ) it was not the question here and ( 3 ) you are not an Atlantis searcher!
It is very "official" that Menes as Herodotus saw him comes before Plato's Atlantis. No scientist would deny this. Would be ridiculous.



Did I ever say that Herodotus himself places Menes prior to Plato's Atlantis? No I did not.
Herodotus simply does not talk at all of Atlantis.
But he gives a number. And this number can be compared to Plato's number.
By whom? By us moderns. (PS: And by Plato who lived after Herodotus!)
Both numbers are wrong, but behind both there could be a distorted reality.



Exactly, The Puzzler, and the scene is considered to be realistic, such idols have been found in masses in Thebes. Only that the genealogy of the priest is a forgery to justify their position in the temple.



Not a good idea, I think.



Good link: Download it to your hard drive!
Thank you (I bought a hardcopy years ago ...)

Pretty much anybody who's ever read Herodotus has reason to doubt your claim. It's wrong.

This is made rather obvious overall by the descriptions of both peoples.

You are not a competent researcher.

No scientist worth any merit would get caught up in your delusion.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#60    Proclus

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:47 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Pretty much anybody who's ever read Herodotus has reason to doubt your claim. It's wrong.

This is made rather obvious overall by the descriptions of both peoples.

You are not a competent researcher.

No scientist worth any merit would get caught up in your delusion.

cormac

Sorry, your claims tend now finally to become absolutely ridiculous and I don't know why you are doing this? I wish somebody else could explain me what's going on in your brain. My personal guess is that you permanently suspect me to be an Atlantis crackpot searching for an Atlantis 9600 BC in the Atlantic Ocean (which I am not), and thus by suspecting me permantently to be a crackpot you are caught in deep misunderstandings.

I think this e.g. can be seen by you imputing me again and again things I never said,
but which are very typical for a crackpot.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!




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