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Troubling Doctrines For Christians


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#181    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:54 AM

Since I tend not to believe in deities, perhaps I cannot comment on God, but, then, on the other hand, I can be objective on the subject.  I see God as a parent much as in my just-posted message.  A loving God does not punish; such a thing would be impossible in such a God.  It is possible in us only because we are not gods, but we should not project our limitations onto Him.


#182    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

A loving God does not punish; such a thing would be impossible in such a God.  It is possible in us only because we are not gods, but we should not project our limitations onto Him.
You never stop to amaze me, Frank. I completely agree with you. Punish, that un-God-like word. "In seeking the truth about suffering, we come closer to understanding the character of God." A woman said this on television because I think it's easy to close off, find an excuse to be counted out, and miss this opportunity, this invitation, especially when our culture tells us to avoid suffering and gravitate to those who will reinforce our self-congratulatory nature (disguised as love). I believe it was a Christian documentary about suffering.  Peace.


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#183    Yamato

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

Not sure how punishment is a limitation.   Trying to say that love and punishment are mutually exclusive to God (that he can only do one or the other) is what sounds like the real limitation.

I might accept the statement that "We know nothing about God, if God exists at all" but in doing so, any religious belief is nullified.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#184    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

Yea talking about God inevitably limits Him.  If I say He is smart, then He can't be dumb.


#185    IamsSon

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

I think children who are disciplined -- physically or emotionally through scolding or deprivations -- can become rebellious and hateful, and end up stealing from their parents and running away and even fighting back (certainly talking back).
This is the opposite of my experience.  The adults I meet who are able to make difficult, mature decisions, and who are respectable and respectful are people who were raised by parents who loved them enough to set definite limits that were explained to them along with the consequences of violating those limits.

Quote

This is not natural.  The natural desire of a child is to please its parents.  The natural desire of parents is to love their children.
Really?  The natural reactions I see from children of all races, family situation or economic standing are to be self-centered.  Sharing, saying, "Please" and "Thank you," being respectful of other people and their property are all things that have to be taught.


Quote

How is it then that most families are so messed up, and all are a little messed up?  Reading some of the above messages has reminded me of how disfunctional so many families end up being.

A child who is rewarded with love and other more tangible ways (they are children after all) but not punished -- who is often reminded that they are loved and that the parents are proud of them -- does not need to be punished more than a frown or a "please do not do that."  I know many parents find this hard to believe, but it is true.  Where parents find they have to use real discipline they have already failed -- they have already planted the seeds of rebellion through impatience or through working out their own problems on their children.
Allowing children to do as they want, not being taught limitations and not being taught self-control and discipline is not love, it's at best co-dependence at worst it is disdain and disregard.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#186    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate.  Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.


#187    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate.  Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

Frank are you suggesting that the son in Pa's story was parented in a way that lead to his stealing?


Now, my cousins son had let his grades drop and my cousin spoke to his son a few times about his grades, they didn't come up, so my cousin grounded him, which did lead to resentment and his son got upset and moved out.
when his son returned home Dad and son talked and found a program for his kid to help him with his academics, problem resolved.Father and son are very close again.

In this case-- I personally would of been concerned about my child's grades too. Now, I would of approached it with a different strategy to make sure my kid could get good grades, tutoring whatever it took first, the difference for me is I  would of approached it to help (not in frustration.) I would not of grounded/punished my child as a solution.

It doesn't work IMO. I tutor kids and this seems to be the pat response, it never works and they eventually hire a tutor. Punishment-- doesn't allow for the growth that is needed. But- eventually parents get to this understanding usually via the kids rebellion. My motto is as a parent I am here to help you, I would of looked at the situation in fairness and learned from it and found a win win for all involved. Yet, in the end my cousin came to the same wisdom using his approach and I know he loves his son deeply and vice versa.

I would/do agree on a personal level and personal preference for me, that I can parent in ways that create a cooperation and respect for all concerned from the start. We have to have rules and limits, standards, teach self discipline, and self responsibility (it is not realistic/productive to let a child do whatever they choose.) (I am certain you are not suggesting this anyways) and we can parent in a way that is not harmful, I have successfully raised 3 sons with a non violent/harmful ethic. But, I have not had kids that steal etc. so in all fairness I know I would not be okay with it, and would want my kid to stop. How I would do this I'd have to think about it.

Edited by Sherapy, 26 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#188    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

No matter how well or how poorly a child is raised, nurture is only part of the story.  There is also the child's basic nature, and it will out in the end.  Parents can't be blamed for when a child turns out bad and often children raised in the worst environments turn out good.


#189    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

No matter how well or how poorly a child is raised, nurture is only part of the story.  There is also the child's basic nature, and it will out in the end.  Parents can't be blamed for when a child turns out bad and often children raised in the worst environments turn out good.

Parenting is not easy across the board. How would you of dealt with the son in Pa's story if I may ask?


Brave2U same question?


Iamson you too.

Thank you all ahead of time for your input.

Edited by Sherapy, 26 March 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#190    IamsSon

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate.  Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.
Your definition of love must be very shallow.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#191    danielost

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate.  Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

Usually it is the abused children who are resentful.

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#192    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

The only "discipline" my wife and I ever used (we raised five adopted children and several more from young ages) was taking them to a monk and having him do their magic (certain rituals that might be taken as similar to having a child go to a priest and having the priest pray with them over their misconduct), and this was rare.  I think we tolerated a lot of things many parents won't, like broken dishes and late night pillow fights, but they all turned out fine with never even a voice raised.

Edited by Frank Merton, 26 March 2013 - 05:53 PM.


#193    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:10 PM

View Postdanielost, on 26 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Usually it is the abused children who are resentful.

That is what "god's" love is; abuse.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#194    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 26 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Your opinion on his medical state is noted, I've met the son a few times and I've never noticed bipolar traits, though bipolar disorder can exist for long times in a state of apparent dormancy.

You have a very different definition of "love" than what I do.  You quote 1 Corinthians 13, which I agree with, but you've interpreted very differently to how I would have done so.
Hi PA,

Unless you're a qualified clinician, bipolar condition is very hard to diagnose. Just a thought.

People who have experienced the divine (especially in the afterlife) say that "a love unlike any other" have engulfed their being or soul. That is the nature of the "unconditional love" that I have mentioned. It is unlike our imperfect, vague, human, earthly love. "Unconditional love" is not an action, and yet, it is miraculous on many levels, without going into details.


I forgot to add the link, here's the link:

http://www.unexplain...u

God bless, PA. You're a good soul.

Edited by braveone2u, 26 March 2013 - 08:04 PM.

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According to Gnosticism, Christ came to world to give us a way out; so, why is Gnosticism so secretive and elitist when it comes to salvation??
“Moses approached the dark cloud where God was.”

#195    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:46 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 26 March 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Hi PA,

Unless you're a qualified clinician, bipolar condition is very hard to diagnose. Just a thought.

People who have experienced the divine (especially in the afterlife) say that "a love unlike any other" have engulfed their being or soul. That is the nature of the "unconditional love" that I have mentioned. It is unlike our imperfect, vague, human, earthly love. "Unconditional love" is not an action, and yet, it is miraculous on many levels, without going into details.


I forgot to add the link, here's the link:

http://www.unexplain...u

God bless, PA. You're a good soul.

I am not sure that our vague human experience of love is as lack luster as you describe, lol. When I even think of one of my kids I am filled with a love beyond words, beyond logic, beyond description. I just know your mother fills the same about you Brave.<3 <3 :wub:

Edited by Sherapy, 26 March 2013 - 08:46 PM.





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