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Belgian twins choose euthenasia


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#166    Kludge808

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

View Postjoc, on 15 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Oh, I can think of lots of other reasons besides murder and rape.  Bank Robbery, Kidnapping, Armed Robbery of any kind, DWI or DUI where someone else is killed, Child Molesting, Maiming someone intentionally.   I have rethought my previously held opinion that Jay Walkers should be on that list.  I will have to go with Life without the possibility of parole for Jay Walking.
Nah, jay walkers should be required to cross Farrington Hwy up around Maile on a Friday night.  Survivors have to try again.

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#167    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

I wouldn’t go while there’s someone who needs me.
I also wouldn’t ever let damn depression win in the end. Hell, no. I was depressed since I discovered what awful planet I was born on, but at the same time I can’t stop being amazed with that same planet.
So I push on forward, insanely optimistic in my paranoid pessimism.
There are situations and pains that would make me give up, but that time hasn’t come yet. And to be honest, no one knows what they would do until it becomes real. It’s a lot easier to say than do, be it dying or staying alive.

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#168    Kludge808

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 18 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I agree with you .. Years ago, long before I had children, I wouldn't have agreed, but after the journey I have faced, I have changed that view .....When I lost my daughter weeks before she was due to be born..I viewed her as a little baby girl, ( well she was a little girl )  and no one could tell me any different.
My sympathies for your loss.  My granddaughter would be 15 now but Noelle lost her in her 3rd trimester.

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#169    shadowlark

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:04 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Euthanasia is killing of incurable patient suffering agonizing pain or stopping life support for body in irreversible coma.

No, that's your definition of euthaniasia. There are different definitions that don't include the "agonizing pain" stipulaton:

http://www.merriam-w...nary/euthanasia
"the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy"

http://www.thefreedi....com/euthanasia
"The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment."

http://dictionary.re...owse/euthanasia
"Also called mercy killing. The act of putting to death painlessly or allowing to die, as by withholding extreme medical measures, a person or animal suffering from an incurable, especially a painful, disease or condition."

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

There are situations and pains that would make me give up, but that time hasn’t come yet. And to be honest, no one knows what they would do until it becomes real. It’s a lot easier to say than do, be it dying or staying alive.

*Bolded by me

I think that's the point - it's easy to say, "Oh, going blind is no big deal - not a reason to kill yourself" but until you're in that particular situation, you don't really know how you'd act. I suffer from depression. The meds they gave me didn't help, so I'm currently not medicated. I also suffer from chronic pain due to an old injury. There isn't a day that goes by that I'm not in pain. There are days I wish I were dead so I didn't have to suffer any more, but it's never gotten so unbearable that I've tried to take my own life. But to someone else, my suffering may be too much to bear and they may make the choice to end it all.

I personally don't have an issue with doctor-assisted suicide, as long as there are strict guidelines in place and the person who wants to die is of sound mind. If someone is able to go to their vet and put down their dog who is suffering from severe arthritis, why don't I have the right to end my own suffering? I really don't think it's going to lead to doctors saying, "Well, this person is 90 years old so there's no point treating the (insert ailment), let's just euthanize."   If the patient wants to be euthanized and has gone through the proper couselling, etc, then I don't see the problem.


#170    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

View PostKludge808, on 19 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

My sympathies for your loss.  My granddaughter would be 15 now but Noelle lost her in her 3rd trimester.

Sigh...so sad.. I might add it is also most frightening for the mother..  I recall while giving birth, seeing her little body as  it came out..I went into shock and they had to pin me down, I went nuts..It scared the life clean out of me..It really disturbs you.....I woke up afterwards wishing it was an nightmare.. But I felt empty and depression hit me for a long time afterwards..... .... I named my daughter Nicole ..She would be approx almost 3 years old now..  I have a new baby boy though..  I named him Aaron ...He is lovely.. but so big and funny, who loves his food  lol ..I know life goes on, but I have to make the most of it

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 19 January 2013 - 11:30 PM.

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#171    Mike D boy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

The twins felt their lifes are threatened by disability they are not prepared for, so they opted to end their lives with dignity and respect, and they never lived the difficulties of high disability the twins didn't want to experience. Such a tough decision to make involving their lifes they privately own and nobody should force them to live an ever-increasingly hard life involve going deaf or blind. I wish the twins a happy time in a better place, still sad to read about it...if there was technology to prevented genetically-coded determined deafness and blindness, would they change their minds?

Edited by Tsa-La-Gie Oyate, 19 January 2013 - 11:37 PM.

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#172    shadowlark

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

View PostTsa-La-Gie Oyate, on 19 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

nobody should force them to live an ever-increasingly hard life involve going deaf or blind.

^^This. 100% this. Their bodies, their lives, their choice.


#173    acidhead

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:24 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 18 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:


You're actually against abortion? That surprises me.

For the true rape victim no... For everybody else:  Don'T use abortion as a means of birth conTrol.

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#174    Rlyeh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:49 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Two dead bodies. Cremated soon after.
If doctors had or had not consensus about justifiability of euthanasia is what makes it euthanasia or murder.
Are you going deaf? Or blind?
I was so close to make the most tasteless joke ever...
No, that doesn't make murder. Murder is illegal, show that there deaths were illegal.
You've been asked twice and failed to provide evidence of murder. Just a misinformed opinion.

Quote

Aha. The most important factor is what you want. Sure. Not what anyone needs, not what is the objective logical action, it’s only what You want.
It will change once you become a parent... I hope.
No, what they wanted. Did becoming a parent affect your reading skills, or did they already suck?

Quote

Let me tell you something. Because I too have right to have my priorities, and these are not my whims. Not that I’d ever allow my whims to decide on matters of life and death.
That's lovely, and if you did want to off yourself, I wish you the best.


#175    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

View Postshadowlark, on 19 January 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

No, that's your definition of euthaniasia. There are different definitions that don't include the "agonizing pain" stipulaton:

http://www.merriam-w...nary/euthanasia
"the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy"

http://www.thefreedi....com/euthanasia
"The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment."

http://dictionary.re...owse/euthanasia
"Also called mercy killing. The act of putting to death painlessly or allowing to die, as by withholding extreme medical measures, a person or animal suffering from an incurable, especially a painful, disease or condition."


All three definitions translate to the same, and according to them, blindness and depression don’t justify killing, except if you stretch them far beyond their original meaning.
And when you start stretching definitions, you are bound to have their meaning completely lost and the practice misused.    

Already in this thread you can see one more definition of euthanasia: “Killing anyone who comes in and says they would like to die. No questions asked, it was their choice.”

People with serious problems are often even more susceptible to suggestion, so if euthanasia is not very controlled and its definition is not kept un-stretched, it’s a matter of time, short time, before old people, people with arthritis, glaucoma, Down, various curable cancers, crooked teeth, bad breath, brown eyes etc. are talked into receiving mercy.




Quote

*Bolded by me

I think that's the point - it's easy to say, "Oh, going blind is no big deal - not a reason to kill yourself" but until you're in that particular situation, you don't really know how you'd act. I suffer from depression. The meds they gave me didn't help, so I'm currently not medicated. I also suffer from chronic pain due to an old injury. There isn't a day that goes by that I'm not in pain. There are days I wish I were dead so I didn't have to suffer any more, but it's never gotten so unbearable that I've tried to take my own life. But to someone else, my suffering may be too much to bear and they may make the choice to end it all.

I personally don't have an issue with doctor-assisted suicide, as long as there are strict guidelines in place and the person who wants to die is of sound mind. If someone is able to go to their vet and put down their dog who is suffering from severe arthritis, why don't I have the right to end my own suffering? I really don't think it's going to lead to doctors saying, "Well, this person is 90 years old so there's no point treating the (insert ailment), let's just euthanize."   If the patient wants to be euthanized and has gone through the proper couselling, etc, then I don't see the problem.


I completely agree with you, except about the possibility of misuse.
You think it won’t lead to situation I’ve described above. I obviously (at least I believed I was writing clear enough) support justified euthanasia, only I’m convinced it was already misused the way I described above, by encouraging sick but viable patient to get out of healthy people way.






View PostRlyeh, on 20 January 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

No, that doesn't make murder. Murder is illegal, show that there deaths were illegal.
You've been asked twice and failed to provide evidence of murder. Just a misinformed opinion.


You've been answered more than twice and it's still you that fail to accept unjustified euthanasia is not euthanasia but murder, which is still illegal.
It’s you that should provide evidence the doctors in the first hospital who refused the twin’s demand are less qualified than those who killed them.


Quote

No, what they wanted. Did becoming a parent affect your reading skills, or did they already suck?


When I said “you” that was (obviously, but obviously not obvious to you) because you wrote:
Quoting Rlyeh:  “Still ignoring the most important factor, the choice to end one's suffering.”

Clearly it implies in anyone’s euthanasia case you think the choice of the suffering one is the most important factor. I’ve chosen to use “you” instead of “Belgian twins” because I was under impression you would apply the same logic to anyone, not just two of them.
Clearly it implies you see their choice as the most important factor because you see your choice as the most important factor.

In short, don’t get angry at me for noticing you have your logical foot in your logical mouth, because it was you who put it there, not me.
I’m able to argument my opinion, with more than screaming for unrestricted choice. If that frustrates you, you are welcome to present actual arguments that would make me change my opinion and accept utter egotism as the most logical social model.



And the parenting. I chose to point out the selfishness usually diminishes with becoming a parent because in context of euthanasia it changes a lot.
Parents will rarely agree with euthanasia before it’s really the only resort left. Notice the parents of Belgian twins were not agreeing with their sons’ wish.
Children are what makes a lot of otherwise suicidal people stay alive and fight on. Not only children, any true bond makes people motivated, but parenting is good example that even very simple people could understand with not too much thinking problems.

If you could understand that, this conversation would suddenly become less caustic and more constructive.



Quote

That's lovely, and if you did want to off yourself, I wish you the best.


:lol:
Keep your wishes writhe in their own little hell, I plan to stick around for decades and annoy the **** out of little powerless psychos m********ing at prospect of death being handled out like flyers for the newest freak show.

Mercy is the most noble aspect of human character.
That’s why truly humane people will agree to burden their conscience with acts of mercy that are controversial, such as euthanasia, and that’s why I think it’s only the completely inhumane people that will take it lightly and try to make it standard, encouraged practice in cases where it is not justified.

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#176    Render

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:


I’m able to argument my opinion, with more than screaming for unrestricted choice. If that frustrates you, you are welcome to present actual arguments that would make me change my opinion and accept utter egotism as the most logical social model.


Oh really?

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:


I blame educational system for this awkwardness of yours, but you should be able to notice yourself it is not working.


View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

You’re not giving up your cute pictures instead of arguments approach, huh?
Oh, well, everyone within their own limitations...  could you draw me something in crayons? To soften my heart that refuses to believe in socially accepted murders?


View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Yes, my dear apparently over-praised child, it may set the justified euthanasia practice back, because obviously the controversy with which this case is ripe will hurt the already highly controversial issue that euthanasia is.


Yeah, a real class act you are. Maybe take a break from the forum because it's obviously all a lil bit too much for you. Get some self-insight.

You simply keep on refusing the arguments so you can carry on throwing around your insults. This thread and the twins their lives isn't about you, no one has be a martyr for you. Especially since you absolutely cannot place yourself in their shoes. You've made that very clear. The only one with a bloated self-esteem here is you.
The others are simply discussing a dire case and trying to imagine what it is really like to be in such a position.
You're lil ranting spree brings no value to this thread.

But maybe, when you're old enough, you'll find that thinking about where other ppl come from, really think about it, is important in a discussion. Because without it you have no place to judge anything.


#177    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:27 AM

View PostRender, on 20 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:


Oh really?







Yeah, a real class act you are. Maybe take a break from the forum because it's obviously all a lil bit too much for you. Get some self-insight.

You simply keep on refusing the arguments so you can carry on throwing around your insults. This thread and the twins their lives isn't about you, no one has be a martyr for you. Especially since you absolutely cannot place yourself in their shoes. You've made that very clear. The only one with a bloated self-esteem here is you.
The others are simply discussing a dire case and trying to imagine what it is really like to be in such a position.
You're lil ranting spree brings no value to this thread.

But maybe, when you're old enough, you'll find that thinking about where other ppl come from, really think about it, is important in a discussion. Because without it you have no place to judge anything.


Ya, rly.


Obviously you guys are not used to the grownup discussion.
You have to argument your demands before anyone agrees with them, it is not enough to roll on the store floor screaming until mommy buys you the candy.

I think I was more than clear in more than enough posts but I will rephrase one more time, just for you:

Euthanasia is needed practice, for people who cannot be helped by any other procedure and who are suffering the extreme pain.
If the definition of euthanasia is stretched to cover assisting any suicide, solely on suicidal person request, and legalised as such (note the difference between stretched, arbitrary and real, justified euthanasia) it will be misused out the lowest motives for the lowest purposes.    

Explain why the danger of misuse is not existing, or if you agree the danger is there why it is acceptable in your opinion.

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#178    Render

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

I have already explained i believe, but i think the problem here is we are talking in parallels. I wanted to explain further but your lil attitude is very annoying and just makes me think speaking with you is completely pointless.
You just can't help it to act like everyone, who doesn't agree with you and brings multiple arguments to the able, is a 6 year old. Sad.

Edited by Render, 20 January 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#179    Rlyeh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You've been answered more than twice and it's still you that fail to accept unjustified euthanasia is not euthanasia but murder, which is still illegal.
Belgium allows euthanasia of the non-terminally ill.
http://www.lancet.co...4520-5/fulltext
http://www.researchg...ad3edc71fae.pdf

Since you're making the accusation. Put up or shut up.

Quote

It’s you that should provide evidence the doctors in the first hospital who refused the twin’s demand are less qualified than those who killed them.
There is no law preventing someone going to a different hospital.


#180    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostRender, on 20 January 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I have already explained i believe, but i think the problem here is we are talking in parallels. I wanted to explain further but your lil attitude is very annoying and just makes me think speaking with you is completely pointless.
You just can't help it to act like everyone, who doesn't agree with you are brings multiple arguments to the able, is a 6 year old. Sad.


OK, let’s drop the attitude. Both you and me, because it was your uncalled for sarcasm that started my **** avalanche.

So, ready?

I say that suffering individuals need help and I agree the euthanasia is needed last resort.
I insist on euthanasia being strictly controlled and last resort only.
I fear misuse in case it was taken too lightly, both by society and legislation.

Where do we agree and where do we not agree?

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