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Can god make a rock to big for him to left


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#46    Hugh

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

There is a good discussion of this question and possible answers here:

http://en.wikipedia....potence_paradox


#47    markdohle

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 20 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Do you not understand the problem or are you just stubborn?

LOL he was joking, the question in reality makes no sense.  A rock is part of creation, God is both a part and 'outside' of creation.  Creation is contingent, God is not, creation is not necessary, God is.  It is like who created God?  All things that had a beginning has a cause, true, but God had no beginning.  These kinds of questions are good for those freshmen who are starting philosphy, but for it to be brought up over and over again, well, is funny and at times frustrating ;-), though it will be posted here again soon, along with the deep question, "who created God", then back to eternal regress.

Can God create a hambruger he can't eat, can he make an ocean he can drown in, it is all nonsense (non-sense).

We get caught up in logical loops, can't be helped, we are limited finite beings, with limite intelligence, though profound at times.

Peace
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Edited by markdohle, 21 February 2013 - 02:34 PM.


#48    markdohle

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 21 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I'm attempting a paradox that'll consume this thread in the fires of reuncreation.

LOL :whistle:


#49    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:45 PM

The Big Rock is used because for reasons lost in history this has always been the traditional way the problem is expressed.

When you premise the existence of an omnipotent being, you say this being can do "anything."  So the obvious question becomes, can he do something impossible.  Now lots of things are impossible for us to do but not impossible for, say, Superman.  But Superman is not God -- just someone who can do lots of things we can't.

Where the trouble arises is in things called "self-referential" problems -- problems that refer back to themselves.  Can this omnipotent being who can do anything do something that he cannot then undo.  If he can't, he's not omnipotent; if he can, he's not omnipotent.  The simple fact is that this consists of a logical proof that an omnipotent being cannot exist.  It has all the logical power of any logical proof.

I think the only thing that, with this sort of logic lurking in the world, that continues to make theism possible is sheer stubbornness -- the psychological desire that the beliefs one was brought up with or somehow otherwise indoctrinated with be sustained.


#50    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:56 PM

think of god as endless stream or river .. then comes a person and say can god build a dam at the end of that stream ?
then there is no answer for such question beause the point that being discussed " the end of the stream " does not exist
now let's take take the rock question .
god is with unlimited power and the rock is something that need to excced that unlimited power in order to be done
so how do you want a creation to excced the infinity ?
that rock need to be over god's power to be too heavy to llift
and the power of god is unlimited

botton line .. that's a flawed question .. or a trick question
my opinion

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#51    J. K.

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

It's the philosophical equivalent of an M.C. Escher drawing.  When you start examining it carefully, you realize that the objects cannot exist...in our world of three dimensions.  However, it does exist in two dimensions, otherwise you wouldn't be looking at it.

The Big Rock example doesn't account for the possibility that God exists in more dimensions than the three we know.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#52    Idano

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

View Postdanielost, on 21 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Except, he knew it wouldn't destroy Job.

Well than even worse.  Inflicting all the pain and mental anguish on something beloved just to win a bet?...sorry still sounds evil to me.

What could possibly go wrong?

#53    markdohle

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:04 AM

Can God invent a building so tall that when he gets into an elevator he will never reach the top? :su :passifier: :st


#54    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 22 February 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Can God invent a building so tall that when he gets into an elevator he will never reach the top? :su :passifier: :st
Can god kill himself ?

Can god send himself to hell for eternity if he decides to sin ?

Can god create another god greater than he?

How long has god known that he would create Satan?

Why did god create Somone who has a miserable painful life and knew of but would never accept Christ only to die a spiritual death or be tortured in hell. Omnipotence dictates that god new very well that the only experience of this being would be misery. Why create such a thing?

I think it's clear that omnipotence is off the table. If  god woke up one day and discovered he was omnipotent god would cease to exist. There would be no conciousness in knowing everything and every future decision and turn of events.

Edited by Seeker79, 22 February 2013 - 04:52 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#55    J. K.

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:21 PM

It's the old Flatland story.  Two dimensional shapes cannot comprehend the structure of three dimensional solids.  In the same way, we cannot fully comprehend what God is.  However, lack of understanding doesn't imply non-existence.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#56    danielost

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 22 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:


Can god kill himself ?

(Death is only changing from one form to another.  With that in mind perhaps he could change to a new form.)

Can god send himself to hell for eternity if he decides to sin ?

(Hell is the absence of god.  Also, hell is self punishment.)

Can god create another god greater than he?

(Keeping with my first answer, maybe,)

How long has god known that he would create Satan?

(Don't know.)

Why did god create Somone who has a miserable painful life and knew of but would never accept Christ only to die a spiritual death or be tortured in hell. Omnipotence dictates that god new very well that the only experience of this being would be misery. Why create such a thing?

(He didn't.  He gave man free will. Lucifer wanted to force man to be good.)

I think it's clear that omnipotence is off the table. If  god woke up one day and discovered he was omnipotent god would cease to exist. There would be no conciousness in knowing everything and every future decision and turn of events.

You could be correct with that statement.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#57    Frank Merton

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostJ. K., on 22 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

It's the old Flatland story.  Two dimensional shapes cannot comprehend the structure of three dimensional solids.  In the same way, we cannot fully comprehend what God is.  However, lack of understanding doesn't imply non-existence.
You conclude that because we can't imagine four-dimensional super-shapes means we cannot draw logical conclusions about them.  This does not follow.  We can logically conclude the God that we get preached about is a logical impossibility.  There is no need to try to imagine it.


#58    J. K.

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

Being able to draw logical conclusions about something does not bring total understanding of that thing.  There will be characteristics of it that are indescribable from our point-of-view.  If you claim to understand everything about God, that would make you more than God yourself.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#59    Frank Merton

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:31 PM

Pointless. What is there to know once one has demonstrated that the idea is leads to logical contradictions and therefore is false.


#60    Nathan DiYorio

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:43 PM

View Postpallidin, on 20 February 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

"Ominipotent" is often misconstrued as an inherent contradiction, yet it is not.

This often missed element is that "Omnipotence is combinded with Omniscience", which, essentially, say's that there is Wisdom before the expression of Power.

As such, God creating a rock He can not lift is void by virtue of Wisdom.

Would or Should are irrelevant to Could.

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