107 replies to this topic

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 09 October 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

And I wonder if this view would still be supported without your interpreted Biblical end times rhetoric. In other words, lets remove the Bible from the equation and where does your views still stand?

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible.  Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM?  I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things.  I've explained that every way I know how.  You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative.  Why is such an admission by me so important to you?
Let me paint a picture for you:  If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it.  If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel.  All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God.  Does this make me a bad person in your eyes?  Sorry, I just don't care.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 09 October 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible.  Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM?  I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things.  I've explained that every way I know how.  You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative.  Why is such an admission by me so important to you?
Let me paint a picture for you:  If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it.  If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel.  All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God.  Does this make me a bad person in your eyes?  Sorry, I just don't care.

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah
Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

Edited by Ambush Bug, 10 October 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 10 October 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah
Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

The Kingdom is ushered in with messiah's return.  It is not here, now.  There are many scriptures that speak of these events separately.  What is your point?

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 09 October 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible.  Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM?  I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things.  I've explained that every way I know how.  You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative.  Why is such an admission by me so important to you?
Let me paint a picture for you:  If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it.  If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel.  All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God.  Does this make me a bad person in your eyes?  Sorry, I just don't care.

Images of the slaughter of people bother you, amazing that you are a compassionate blood-thristy war mongerer, perhaps some Pepto will take care of the upset stomach.

I'm glad you can live with yourself and not care about the rest of humanity.

Yes, I agree Israel is the chosen people of God. But they weren't chosen to lead the world to hell, as the current debate on Iran is leading us.


What is "The people of Israel" ?
-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
-It has its own particular, essential, nature.
-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service
2) What is Zionism ?
-Zionism is a new thing.
-It has only existed for a century.
-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.
- a materialistic worldly nation.
-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.
-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

From: http://www.jewsnotzi...rg/opposed.html

[and then]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 10 October 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Images of the slaughter of people bother you, amazing that you are a compassionate blood-thristy war mongerer, perhaps some Pepto will take care of the upset stomach.

I'm glad you can live with yourself and not care about the rest of humanity.

Yes, I agree Israel is the chosen people of God. But they weren't chosen to lead the world to hell, as the current debate on Iran is leading us.


What is "The people of Israel" ?
-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
-It has its own particular, essential, nature.
-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service
2) What is Zionism ?
-Zionism is a new thing.
-It has only existed for a century.
-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.
- a materialistic worldly nation.
-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.
-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

From: http://www.jewsnotzi...rg/opposed.html

Welcome to UM.  I refer you to the last two sentences in my previous post  

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 10 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

The Kingdom is ushered in with messiah's return.  It is not here, now.  There are many scriptures that speak of these events separately.  What is your point?

So the secular Jews of today are going to succeed where the religious Torah Jews failed to do back in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE against the Romans?

Hmm... something just doesnt add up here.

[Yamato]

Ambush Bug, on 10 October 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah
Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.  

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself.   Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't.  He's repeatedly claimed they don't.   So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs.  But yet he still can't do that.   And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

[B Jenkins]

Yamato, on 12 October 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.  

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself.   Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't.  He's repeatedly claimed they don't.   So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs.  But yet he still can't do that.   And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

Hit the nail on the head, Yam.

Indeed we (believers and non believers alike) all must remember, the Bible states God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

But according to 'and then', God has indeed changed. I pointed this out to 'and then' in another post but he ignored it. There are stunning and relevatory parallels between the pre-Captivity Israel and the current State of Israel. I suggested he read Jeremiah chapter 22, Ezekiel chapter 22, and Habukkak chapter 2. But these arent the only chapters in the prophetic books that contain these types of messages that clues-in its modern readers on how and on why the Jews lost their rights to the land.

[DarkHunter]

Ambush bug you might want to do a bit of reading yourself since there are a few prophecies about Israel being restored which you seem to neglect.

Like

Jeremiah 23:3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

Isaiah 43:5&6 "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.  I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.  Bring my sons from afar and my        
daughters from the ends of the earth."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.  I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do themThen you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Also if you would read the Bible more a pattern would emerge that shows Israel would be disobedient, then be punished by God, normally by foreign occupation and at times exile from the land for a time, but then a reconciliation which would bring them back to the land and the removal of the foreign occupation.

Lastly if anyone is bringing up God changing it is you Ambush Bug.  In the Bible it clearly states that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants the Israelites.  By claiming that the Jews lost their right to the land you are changing God's promise to Abraham.  

Edited by DarkHunter, 12 October 2012 - 07:57 AM.

[and then]

Yamato, on 12 October 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.  

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself.   Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't.  He's repeatedly claimed they don't.   So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs.  But yet he still can't do that.   And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

http://www.unexplain...s  THIS is how I view the plight of the Palestinians on whole.  Some injustice to be sure, but as to the majority?  Just good PR efforts.

[and then]

DarkHunter, on 12 October 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Ambush bug you might want to do a bit of reading yourself since there are a few prophecies about Israel being restored which you seem to neglect.

Like

Jeremiah 23:3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

Isaiah 43:5&6 "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.  I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.  Bring my sons from afar and my
daughters from the ends of the earth."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.  I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do themThen you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Also if you would read the Bible more a pattern would emerge that shows Israel would be disobedient, then be punished by God, normally by foreign occupation and at times exile from the land for a time, but then a reconciliation which would bring them back to the land and the removal of the foreign occupation.

Lastly if anyone is bringing up God changing it is you Ambush Bug.  In the Bible it clearly states that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants the Israelites.  By claiming that the Jews lost their right to the land you are changing God's promise to Abraham.  

Bug believes in "special" Jews.  No Zionists need apply for they are not worthy in his book - GOD'S opinion to the contrary notwithstanding....

[Yamato]

and then, on 12 October 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

http://www.unexplain...s  THIS is how I view the plight of the Palestinians on whole.  Some injustice to be sure, but as to the majority?  Just good PR efforts.

What injustice to be sure?  

What good PR efforts?

[and then]

Yamato, on 12 October 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

What injustice to be sure?  

What good PR efforts?

The settlements are, by and large, land grabs by people who see the land as their right.  While I agree that the land IS theirs the chance for a peaceful resolution is greatly diminished by these actions and peace should be the priority if it can be achieved in a way that allows the State to exist with a Jewish character.
If you are serious in the question about PR I refer you to PalWatch.org.  The Palestinians have put on a full court press for years now, with the complicity of many liberal groups around the world, to convince the world at large of the illegitimacy of Israel to exist as a State in Palestine.  It's been so effective that well meaning if somewhat dense young people from the west like Rachel Corrie have come there and died to help people who wouldn't spit on her if she were on fire in any other context of meeting.  Your rhetoric about the suffering of the Palestinians is simply mirroring the line they've been spewing , effectively, for years.  They want the world to do for them what they cannot do for themselves.  And the greatest evil in this is that once they could achieve their State they will IMMEDIATELY begin using it as a fortified beach head to take the rest of the land.  And intelligent people can look at the history of this conflict and see the trend but will not admit it, and will be even less inclined to admit they were in error.  So Israel just cuts to the chase and says by their actions - if you want the land then take it or shut up.

[The New Richard Nixon]

The fact is that 90% of the world do not like Israel

[and then]

The New Richard Nixon, on 12 October 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

The fact is that 90% of the world do not like Israel

So how would you solve this little dilemma, Dick?

Edited by and then, 12 October 2012 - 08:15 PM.