64 replies to this topic

[the L]

Hello dear UMers!

Recently I read on one Croatian forum interesting thread so no one gave logic conclusion so I will ask here.

We know that Pizzaro and Cortes beside guns,steel and horses bring germs which have devastating effect on native population.
Ofcourse negative effect was seen in North america. How come that Vikings didnt spread germs/disaese to North America Indians?

Were they imun? If so how come? Or natives did suffer from small pox from Vikings?

Thanks in advance.

[Abramelin]

Their numbers were too small, and their presence too short.

And there may not have been much close contact between the natives and the Vikings.

,

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[the L]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Their numbers were too small, and their presence too short.

So? Native didnt have imunity. Once few were diseased they mix in villages,they even trade with other tribes. Pandemic should killed 90% of them.
Also we have accounts that they trade with Vikings. Took helmet, fur and stuff. They traded for a year as I can remember.

Edited by the L, 02 September 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[the L]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

And there may not have been much close contact between the natives and the Vikings.

,

Yes there were. In end they scalp them. They traded.

I thought that Vikings somehow didnt bring Germs? Maybe colder climate is reason?

Edited by the L, 02 September 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Abramelin]

They were scalped and they traded?

Source please.

+++

EDIT:

Reverse that order of events, lol.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[the L]

Saga of the Greenlanders. Plus historians argued that they must been trade first before conflict begun.

Edited by the L, 02 September 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Hasina]

Who's to say that they didn't get hit by a pandemic? Maybe it only affected the very northern Native, and as they traded more south the diseases just kinda died off. Or mayhap the northern Natives were actually immune? Who's to say but the Natives and Vikings.

[the L]

Hasina, on 02 September 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Who's to say that they didn't get hit by a pandemic? Maybe it only affected the very northern Native, and as they traded more south the diseases just kinda died off. Or mayhap the northern Natives were actually immune? Who's to say but the Natives and Vikings.

Not that I hold any side of story I must say that natives in America was not imune. Why? because they didnt develop imunnity on certain disease which Euroasians did. Why? because they slept in early ages of civilization with domesticated animals cow, sheep, horse, goat and similar. Natives didnt slept with those animals.

On other hand if they were hit by pandemic we would have archaelogical accounts. Mass graves and similar. Not all Indians burned their dead as burial practice. Also other would developed imunnity so when later Europeans came they would be imun. But they didnt. Maybe Im wrong that they would developed imunity in 500 years.

Edited by the L, 02 September 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[Emma_Acid]

As has been pointed out - their numbers were small, weren't there for very long and had nothing like the same involvement with the natives as the Spanish did.

[Hasina]

Then it's a mystery. Just keep reading what the researchers have to say on the issues. I'm coming at this with very limited knowledge and as you said there's evidence of contact but no evidence of diseases that we've seen. Didn't the Vikings make contact with the Natives before other Europeans did? So that's an even murkier point of history and the modem world just recently began to accept the early contact theory. So there's probably evidence somewhere.

Edited by Hasina, 02 September 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[the L]

Emma_Acid, on 02 September 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

As has been pointed out - their numbers were small, weren't there for very long and had nothing like the same involvement with the natives as the Spanish did.

That isnt explaination. Black plaque came with one boat into Europe.

Hasina, on 02 September 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Then it's a mystery.

So far it is.

[questionmark]

the L, on 02 September 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

That isnt explaination. Black plaque came with one boat into Europe.

Boolcrappy, the black plague came with the Mongols who did seldom use ships and spread into Europe through several channels. What is true is that the first recorded case in Italy came on a ship. But at that time there were other cases in northern  and Eastern Europe.

Now to smallpox, it is very possible that it spread out of Africa with the Arabian conquerors in the 8th and 9th century, at least according to the records we have, therefore it can very well be that the Vikings in the 11th and 12th century were not affected at all.

[Abramelin]

the L, on 02 September 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

So? Native didnt have imunity. Once few were diseased they mix in villages,they even trade with other tribes. Pandemic should killed 90% of them.
Also we have accounts that they trade with Vikings. Took helmet, fur and stuff. They traded for a year as I can remember.

Maybe that tribe died off too fast, after they killed the Vikings, to ever again visit their neighbours.

And what is your proof they traded those helmets and the rest? Those helmets and stuff could have been found by others long after they died.

[the L]

questionmark, on 02 September 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Boolcrappy, the black plague came with the Mongols who did seldom use ships and spread into Europe through several channels. What is true is that the first recorded case in Italy came on a ship. But at that time there were other cases in northern  and Eastern Europe.

Im only aware that about plaqued ship which came in Italy and which cause pandemic.Im not aware of those other cases. Link would be nice. Second it isnt "boolcrapy" at all. My example prooves what Im implying in previous posts.

So what you want to say that we have evidence of Arabs came to north America? In fact I would call them Berbers rather.

[the L]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Maybe that tribe died off too fast, after they killed the Vikings, to ever again visit their neighbours.

And what is your proof they traded those helmets and the rest? Those helmets and stuff could have been found by others long after they died.

I read once. I will search quotes from historians ASAP. Also as I remember in Saga they say something about trade with natives.

About your conclusion-same thing gone trough my mind. That was my first reaction. Brain storm. But then again if pandemic started they would probably go to consult other Shamans/Witch doctors in other tribes.