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Doggerland


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#421    Abramelin

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:45 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

No, which is why I said the following, although I should have amended it to include both spiral shapes and concentric circles.





Actually, the middle one didn't work for me. Don't know why, but it was the worst example anyway and not worth bothering with. The one in the frame was the best example and could have been interpreted as concentric circles, which was what I was trying to show.



Again, it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. And what evidence do you have that the ancestors of today's Scots were responsible for these depictions? How do you know that someone else didn't do it and pass it down to the Scots? Particularly as Irish legend, IIRC, would have the today's Scots originating from Eochaid Allmuir (c.240 AD) and other immigrants, who had left their homeland when a bid for independence was severely crushed by their High-King.

Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.



So you'd rather talk to yourself and insult people for not being interested enough to post in your thread. You're not encouraging anything. But that's OK, I'm done here.

cormac


Well, for what it's worth, I was interested in those volcanic clouds, so I really love to see a photo of that.

And no, I have no evidence that the people living back then were the ancestors of the present-day Scots, but it wouldn't be much of a surprize to me if some mixing of genes took place. I just said 'Scots' as a name for the people living in what is now called Scotland. But ok, I was a bit too quick with my answer to you.

Still, I think it is kind of intriguing that most of these cup-and-circle marks can be found in Scotland, as though they were closest to whatever happened that made them carve these pictures onto stone.

Oh yeah, I do know Doggerland wasn't the only now submerged area above sea level;  in a former post I talked about submerged megalithic looking structures found there, some kind of structure looking like a large stone table.  According to me the people living on what was Doggerland were not separated in culture from the culture on the British Isles and Ireland or other nearby areas, and that is why I talk about finds in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Germany, Denmark and Scandinavia.


About the 'insult': is it an insult when you ask people to use their 'fcking brains'? I wasn't thinking of you when I said that, btw; you are obviously using your brains.

The reason I sometimes flare up is that I cannot understand that people interested in an unknown past - and we have many here - are not interested to take part in the discussion. Some admit that they don't know about anything concerning Doggerland, but are interested in what comes up here, and that's ok with me. But my idea is that most others do not participate because Doggerland appears not to be the place to look for when you believe is some ancient super-civilization, "Atlantis",  and/or aliens. They have lots of imagination, but they seem unable to use that imagination in a useful way.

-

OK, so you are done here. Thanks for your contribution, Cormac.





.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 May 2010 - 03:03 PM.


#422    Abramelin

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:57 PM

From http://www.timetrave...s/rockart.shtml

"The transition between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farming is a fascinating time, and one which we have only begun to study," says Tertia. "The Mesolithic people initially moved northward as the Ice Age glaciers receded. Recent finds demonstrate that they were more sophisticated than previously imagined." Although they did not farm, they built stone houses, with beaten earth or occasionally irregular flagstone floors, the oldest in Britain dating to 8000 BCE. Artifacts, such as flint arrowheads and spear points reveal craftsmanship beyond the level of utility and entering the realm of art. The shift from Meso- to Neolithic culture is considered to have begun approximately 5000 BCE. "Actually, the boundary between the Mesolithic and Neolithic is not well-defined," says Tertia. Evidence shows that the move to farming came earlier in the South and worked its way northward, but its impetus is not clear. Did the deer become over-hunted? Were natural food sources, fruits and the like, over-harvested? Did the successful Mesolithic lifestyle carry the seeds of its own destruction in the form of overpopulation, or did the farmers and herdsmen migrate from elsewhere, pushing the older culture back as they cut the forests for farmland and grazing? (Incredibly, sheep are not native to Britain.)

OK, so they came from elsewhere, but this "Tertia" doesn't take into account that people must have fled Doggerland if they were still able to.

Doggerland was a heavily wooded area, and what I think - like I said many times here - is that they started building using wood (lots of oak trees in Doggerland), but that they gradually shifted to using stone for their structures, knowing what happened to their wooden structures before.






#423    Qoais

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:03 PM

Seems they've done a documentary on Doggerland Abe. NOT that you're going to like the title :no:

http://channel.natio...ew#tab-Overview

Edited by Qoais, 04 May 2010 - 02:03 PM.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

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#424    Abramelin

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:15 PM

View PostQoais, on 04 May 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

Seems they've done a documentary on Doggerland Abe. NOT that you're going to like the title Posted Image

http://channel.natio...ew#tab-Overview


Hmmmm.... I few pages back "Alien Being" already announced this documentary, Qoais.

And some days later I posted a link to the entire documentary online.

Don't you remember there was a bit of a hassle here, about the merging of 2 threads, and then a new, and wrong title for the merged thread? You yourself posted something during that time, lol.

Anyway, I have now also seen it on National Geographic Channel here in Holland, and they made some interesting points in that documentary.

EDIT:

What I somehow didn't like was that the people living there were depicted as people living in dirt, mud on their faces, and walking around dressed in hides. But it's a British doc, so maybe they had on old episode of Monty Python about the middle ages during the plague in front of their mind's eye, lol !!

Even from far before the time of the Doggerlanders there are rock-art paintings in France of people dressed in clothes, NOT hides. People having all kinds of clothes and something looking a lot like shoes. And even in the documentary they show finds from the sea near Denmark of woven fabric.. the oldest ever found in Europe.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 May 2010 - 02:29 PM.


#425    Qoais

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:49 PM

Sorry Abe, I didn't realize it was the same thing.  I'm getting a tad "slow" in my flippin' "golden years" :wacko:

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#426    Abramelin

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:06 PM

No worries, lol, I often forget where I posted what (but that's caused by me posting during 'hightened awareness', LOL !!).

About those cave paintings in France...

We all know about the animals these ancient peoples carved into rock walls, and I will bet many people nowadays don't have the skill to piant or carve realistically like that.

Many still think that the people back then were nothing but primitive hunters living by the moment, hoping they could survive for another day.

But if they had the time to carve and paint like they did, they must have had a lot of free time on their hands.

Maybe they didn't build pyramids and stone houses, but it's my idea that these ancient people are being greatly underestimated.

Yeah, they may have had the most weird beliefs, superstitions, and all that, but are we now so much different? Just read the posts on other forums here.

About those paintings, I don't expect anything like that on the bottom of the North Sea because I don't think there were any rock caves there.

But just look at what the Haida Indians did  in North America; they lived a lot like those Doggerlanders must have lived, but very recently.

Look at what art they created with wood; it's beautifull and impressive. And it proves mastery of their surroundings.

If anything, I expect something similar of the Doggerlanders.

And not just because the Haida were being mentioned in the documentary, I already assumed something similar earlier before that.

The Haida created totem poles; the ancient Germanic people created 'irminsuls'. OK, much later than the time of Doggerland, but even then...

Let's not forget that both these people live/lived in very wooded areas, both peoples used wood for lots of things. And it's kind of logical: wood was/is abundant, wood is easy to work with, and large trees (saquoia/ceder in Vancouver Island, oak in N/W Europe) are impressive trees.

Even the much later Celtic peoples had priests called 'druids', which is said to mean nothing more than 'oak priests'.

In Europe, but on many other places in the world too, they venerated the 'World Tree'.

All the henges, in Britain, Ireland, Wales and Germany, were first build using tree trunks. Later on they started using stone.

In short: socalled 'primitive' people gave the tree a special place in their beliefs.


Haida totem poles:

Posted Image


An irminsul:

Posted Image

--

EDIT:

Some might say: if these people, according to you, were more advanced than what is generally thought, then why did they use wood for much of their buildings and art? Wood is not a material that will last forever?

Well, I will say this: if we super-civilized people that we think we are, kill off eachother with nukes, what will happen? Not only will we die like flies, but all we think of as being proof of us being technologically advanced people will be lost. The EMP (electro-magnatic pulse from the nukes) will shut down anything working on electricity. No light, no tv, no washing machines, no engines, no internet, no trains, and so on, and so on.

And a flood (like the one caused by the Storegga Slide) washed away anything built from wood.

Their most impressive structures were very probably based on wood, and our most impressive structures were built with the use of electricity (yeah, even our sky-scrapers).

Edited by Abramelin, 04 May 2010 - 04:42 PM.


#427    Abramelin

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 07:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

No worries, lol, I often forget where I posted what (but that's caused by me posting during 'hightened awareness', LOL !!).

About those cave paintings in France...

We all know about the animals these ancient peoples carved into rock walls, and I will bet many people nowadays don't have the skill to piant or carve realistically like that.

Many still think that the people back then were nothing but primitive hunters living by the moment, hoping they could survive for another day.

But if they had the time to carve and paint like they did, they must have had a lot of free time on their hands.

Maybe they didn't build pyramids and stone houses, but it's my idea that these ancient people are being greatly underestimated.

Yeah, they may have had the most weird beliefs, superstitions, and all that, but are we now so much different? Just read the posts on other forums here.

About those paintings, I don't expect anything like that on the bottom of the North Sea because I don't think there were any rock caves there.

But just look at what the Haida Indians did  in North America; they lived a lot like those Doggerlanders must have lived, but very recently.

Look at what art they created with wood; it's beautifull and impressive. And it proves mastery of their surroundings.

If anything, I expect something similar of the Doggerlanders.

And not just because the Haida were being mentioned in the documentary, I already assumed something similar earlier before that.

The Haida created totem poles; the ancient Germanic people created 'irminsuls'. OK, much later than the time of Doggerland, but even then...

Let's not forget that both these people live/lived in very wooded areas, both peoples used wood for lots of things. And it's kind of logical: wood was/is abundant, wood is easy to work with, and large trees (saquoia/ceder in Vancouver Island, oak in N/W Europe) are impressive trees.

Even the much later Celtic peoples had priests called 'druids', which is said to mean nothing more than 'oak priests'.

In Europe, but on many other places in the world too, they venerated the 'World Tree'.

All the henges, in Britain, Ireland, Wales and Germany, were first build using tree trunks. Later on they started using stone.

In short: socalled 'primitive' people gave the tree a special place in their beliefs.


Haida totem poles:

Posted Image


An irminsul:

Posted Image

--

EDIT:

Some might say: if these people, according to you, were more advanced than what is generally thought, then why did they use wood for much of their buildings and art? Wood is not a material that will last forever?

Well, I will say this: if we super-civilized people that we think we are, kill off eachother with nukes, what will happen? Not only will we die like flies, but all we think of as being proof of us being technologically advanced people will be lost. The EMP (electro-magnatic pulse from the nukes) will shut down anything working on electricity. No light, no tv, no washing machines, no engines, no internet, no trains, and so on, and so on.

And a flood (like the one caused by the Storegga Slide) washed away anything built from wood.

Their most impressive structures were very probably based on wood, and our most impressive structures were built with the use of electricity (yeah, even our sky-scrapers).


This is nothing that suits the minds of those who love to believe in some ancient super civilization, I know about that.

But those who dream about ancient super-civilizations are most often the same people who don't know how to make a fire, how to mend their clothes, how to hunt for food ("we have MacDonalds, we should we??"), they would be LOST if anythimg happened to our electricity based civilization.

In short: I am not impressed by what the majority of our present population of humans is capable of doing.

We are dependent on a small number of people who really know how to handle catastrophs.


EDIT:

I see Cormac reading this thread, hmmmmm....

Why would he, being done with this thread, being pissed off as he told us he is??

Cormac, you are Irish, I am Dutch.

When I am drunk, I say things I don't really mean.

You are fcking Irish, you of all people (ok, maybe also MatthShark) should know about the effect of whiskey, or alcohol in general??

Come on, don't be pissed off that easily. Post what you wanted to post, but dont be put off by my attitude, OK?? I am Dutch, you are Irish. I am supposed to be a pot-head, you are supposed to be a whiskey addict.

Come on, have balls, ok??

Edited by Abramelin, 04 May 2010 - 08:10 PM.


#428    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:34 PM

I see no reason why the consciousness of man would vary between climate. So, the age we're talking mankind is pretty well developed. Brain capacity isn't gonna grow much. It was pre agriculture but a fertile land would produce an abundance of wild foods. Animal husbandry suits a nomadic lifestyle, which would seem a suitable way of life for the Doggers. Maybe comparable to the shamans of Lapland and Siberia. You're right it is exciting to think of things without super civilizations or aliens from time to time  :P We really have no idea what levels of culture a pre catastrophe culture could have reached and as you mentioned, would degrades quickly. Perhaps the survivors passed down the memories of the 'Great Wave' and the descendants built Stonehenge and the other megalithic sites as a marker to prove high civilization before a flood. By high I mean a cooperative shamanic culture that evoled naturall without interference.

I was trying to suss the climate in the area pre neolithic and came up with this link. It speaks about the culture in Finland a lot, no Doggerland though. I thought it interesting anyway but I was surpirsed to read that quartz was an abundant material. Means nothing but shamans could have used it for some reason like healing or trinkets. How does crystal degrade under water I wonder?

http://docs.google.c...G1A8lFfRW4JttQQ

Edited by SlimJim22, 04 May 2010 - 09:34 PM.

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#429    lightly

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:34 AM

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:
Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

. . . ^ This bit from cormac's post is fascinating!   The image [below]  shows [in lighter blue] one contiguous  continental shelf  connecting  Ireland ,England,  and the Doggerlands, to the rest of western Europe.
   It just struck me as cool that all of that was occupied prior to 6100 BC .
          .. And.. that there were possibly more exposed Islands along the MID Atlantic Ridge  to aid any possible trans Atlantic voyagers.... from either direction?
Atlantic ridge.jpg    *click to enlarge

Edited by lightly, 05 May 2010 - 12:35 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#430    Sthenno

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:38 AM

For some reason, I though this thread was in reference to this story...
http://news.bbc.co.u...ire/8660449.stm
Whoops  :blush:


#431    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:38 AM

View Postlightly, on 05 May 2010 - 12:34 AM, said:

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:
Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

. . . ^ This bit from cormac's post is fascinating!   The image [below]  shows [in lighter blue] one contiguous  continental shelf  connecting  Ireland ,England,  and the Doggerlands, to the rest of western Europe.
   It just struck me as cool that all of that was occupied prior to 6100 BC .
          .. And.. that there were possibly more exposed Islands along the MID Atlantic Ridge  to aid any possible trans Atlantic voyagers.... from either direction?
Attachment Atlantic ridge.jpg   *click to enlarge


I know about those other submerged areas, and the original title of this thread was 'doggerland, and other lost countries' or something.

The largest area of land that got submerged was Sundaland.

Check it.  I already asked Br. Cornelius to start a thread about that.

I am talking about Doggerland, ok?

Little Soles Bank on the edge of the Celtic Shelf, google it, a Russian created a whole story about it being Atlantis City.

Now try to research it; it will be a little bit difficult because after the Channel opened, whatever was there, it got flushed into the deep of the Atlantic.

Good luck.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 May 2010 - 02:37 AM.


#432    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:39 AM

View PostSthenno, on 05 May 2010 - 12:38 AM, said:

For some reason, I though this thread was in reference to this story...
http://news.bbc.co.u...ire/8660449.stm
Whoops  Posted Image

Yeah, you thought......

That's a rare thing around here.


#433    Sthenno

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:43 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 May 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

Yeah, you thought......

That's a rare thing around here.
Well, I didn't think anything of relevance or consequence, so it's probably not worth noting...


#434    Abramelin

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 06:14 PM

A week ago I stumbled upon a petroglyph that sort of amazed me, in connection with the Doggerland/comet/circular pattern thing I have been blabbering about for a few pages.

I found it by accident, and someone on some forum commented about it, saying: "That looks like Brittain and the North Sea, but what is that circular thing in the middle??"

But when I was on that site, someone banged on my front door, I opened the door, and let my visitor in.

Was a bit of a desprate person, so I closed my computer a bit drastically, and lost what I had found.

Next day I tried to retrieve that same petroglyph, but whatever I tried, I couldn't find it again.

Well, this is what I remember it looked like:

Posted Image

If any of you knows about this petroglyph, please post about it here.

I have tried everything, but somehow I am unable to find it again.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that the image above is what *I* remember of it, and no doubt it is 'colored' by what I wish to remember....

I am quite sure about the left and central part of the image, but not at all sure about the right part. Now that I'm thinking again about it, it may have had some sort of zig-zag line at the right also, and thus different from what I drawed at the right.

I hope you all can understand how frustrating this is: it's like winning the lottery and not being able to collect the money because you lost your ticket.





.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 May 2010 - 06:34 PM.


#435    lightly

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 06:46 PM

Hi Abramelin,   did a search and stumbled upon this site  on concentric circle petroglyphs ..  Look at this one  , from Spain !   no zigzags beside.. but  the same circles with line to center.    http://www.paim.net/circles/

spain.jpg    *click to enlarge


*

Edited by lightly, 08 May 2010 - 06:47 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.




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