465 replies to this topic

[Habitat]

Shabd Mystic, on 11 March 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

But the ego will prevent that from ever happening. It makes people MUCH more interested in things like going on Internet message boards trying to convince people how "special" they are then they are interested in truly grasping how meaningless and insignificant they are.

You are seeing the irony in your words, SM ? In truth there is nothing "special" about "spiritual masters", show me one that claims to be a special type of being and I will declare him an egotist and a fraud. A whole range of circumstances internal to a person, as well as the exterior environment, can lead to the spiritual "bent", which might be known as being "called", but it requires then another peculiar set of circumstances to exist for them to be "chosen", to follow through to its completion. It is not insignificant that both "called" and "chosen" imply, at least partly, something out of your control, which may not lead to wholly agreeable results either. Remember the words of Christ “Father, let this cup pass from my lips” of the hardship involved. We are either all meaningless and insignificant, or none of us are, and if the spiritual quest could not answer that question in full, it would not be worth squat.

[Shabd Mystic]

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

You are seeing the irony in your words, SM ? In truth there is nothing "special" about "spiritual masters", show me one that claims to be a special type of being and I will declare him an egotist and a fraud.

I see no irony in my words at all. I don't know of a single perfect Master who claims anything about themselves in any way whatsoever. They only talk about previous Masters and why they taught what they did.

Of course, to someone like you that will then be proof that they aren't a perfect Master. "They don't talk about themselves being one because it would be a lie." I know how the game works for anyone who doesn't want to believe anyone could ever be greater than they are. I've seen it all at least 100 times before.

You are so blinded by ego that you don't even recognize that you're on here flapping your gums about how knowledgeable you are about such things by saying "there is nothing special about spiritual masters."

You are saying you know so much more than Rumi, Nanak, Kabir and countless others. They are wrong and you are right. That means you have attained greater heights than they have because that is the only way you could possibly know more than they all know.

You are on here trying hard to portray yourself as some sort of accomplished mystic when the fact is any mystic on earth who had ever accomplished anything would never go out trying to act like they have. They would in fact go the opposite way and downplay anything of that sort.

The fact that you and a couple others are here trying to claim some exalted knowledge of mysticism proves that you have none and the fact that you argue and try to counter just about everything I post by some of the world's highest achieving mystics just makes that fact all the more dramatic in it's showing.

That's very typical of people who get a little taste of mysticism on any of the many wrong paths, or who just get some sort of "mystical experiences" handed to them without even working for them (even more so in such cases). This says it perfectly:

"There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted
ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves
into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are
strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual techniques."
~ Chögyam Trungpa

.

[Habitat]

SM, you have failed to address the question of how a guru you have no personal contact with you, facilitates your spiritual advancement, indispensably. You even say he has nothing to say that is new. But, by some mystery I fail to understand, your declaring him your spiritual master makes all the difference. Please explain. I don't say the guidance of a guru is necessarily no help, but in the end the individual has to judge whether a guru is genuine or not, and is putting you on the true path. True mysticism is the loneliest journey of all, co-opting others as companions will not help you, in what is, at end, a purely solitary enterprise. A guru is just another "accident" of your personal history that needs to be "forgotten" albiet temporarily.

[braveone2u]

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Not fulfilled, inasmuch as there is more "unfolding" to do, but I have come to realise that the pace cannot be forced, except at your peril.

Should I assume that you believe it's up to the person's efforts to find/get total fulfillment?

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

any mortal being is subject to all the ills and restrictions that implies, but as I have said before, the "freedom" of unity consciousness cannot be carried back into the world

Well said.

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

without ego you cannot function in the world.

How do you define ego?

[Seeker79]

Habitat, on 11 March 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

What lies within is the "you" that is least known to you, or even completely unknown. Included in that is the divine aspect that Jung described as being "indistinguishable from God". It is not necessarily beneficial that what we have within us is brought into consciousness, however. It needs to be a conservative process in which we gradually learn more about ourselves without "spinning out" from a sudden uprush of psychic material, like an LSD tripper. The common human experience is to "grow" psychologically by gradually becoming better acquainted with the neglected aspects of ourselves over decades. A more rounded out, happier personality, in theory at least, should result. The true, mystical religious aspect, the philosopher's "gold", is the last, potential unfolding of the psyche into consciousness. "Many are called, but few are chosen", is a reference to the fact that a great many arrive at this threshold, but a very few carry it further. Only those that are "called" ought even to contemplate it, it is really a matter of life and death, if not literally, at least in the sense of fulfilled, or unfulfilled being. A person who is drawn to the mystical,or revels in the wisdom of the sages, is nearer to the "fire" that Christ spoke of, than most. There lays, in a chamber most of us have behind many closed doors, the mystery of mysteries. We are a bit like frightened animals terrified of, but also fascinated by what lies in that hidden chamber. When, and if the fascination overcomes the fear, the awesome encounter, besides which, according to the wisdom of the ancients, all other of life's satisfactions pale,  can occur. But we live in an over-material age that automatically dismisses this as a phantasm of the mind, or an hallucination that is confined to our skull. Don't be fooled, if you insist this can be "understood", it cannot. It took me 50 years to realise that the scienctific mindset is a brainwash that has millions, or even billions, in a self-satisfied, but deluded state, of looking down their nose at the "pitiful superstitious".

I had to read that post three times just to admire it.

[Seeker79]

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

the "freedom" of unity consciousness cannot be carried back into the world, without ego you cannot function in the world. Any claims to the contrary are nonsense, a "master" that is in an egoless state is not aware  of his own existence, and is in a trance state.

Here I'll say it, yes you have been there or you are a genius. Only if you have been could you make that statement so pointedly. It is completely solidly true. It's only the memory of the feeling that you bring back, and you can only be astonished afterward.

[Seeker79]

"There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted
ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual techniques."
~ Chögyam Trungpa

I could not agree more.

[Seeker79]

braveone2u, on 11 March 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Have you entered or experienced "the mystery of mysteries" chamber? If so, what is this "mystery"?

Are you fulfilled?

Is the state, which makes "all other of life's satisfactions pale...," equal to freedom?

Is freedom possible while your unique "awareness" is intact, meaning you are still "aware" of your separateness, your individual identity?

The mystery is an experience.

You give up fulfillment upon surendure then you are fulfilled by virtue of the knowledge and experience that fulfillment is a complete illusion. ( it's a tangle of words to try and explain it more.., I'll try if you want me to)

Freedom? No way! The lak of discovery is non existence. One must have obstacles to have meaning. I have come to loath the popular concept of heaven and revel in my struggles.

Now moments of the experience of freedom is what freedom is all about. It is nescescerily fleeting. It's that singular release, climax, and moment. The same thing with other discoveries. We cannot exist in those moments indefinantly, but we can return to them over and over again for an eternity. In fact that's what we are doing this very moment.

I tried... Maybe if I think about more I can explaine it better.

[Shabd Mystic]

Habitat, on 13 March 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

SM, you have failed to address the question of how a guru you have no personal contact with you, facilitates your spiritual advancement, indispensably.

I guess you'd have to experience it to ever understand the myriad ways that happens. You'd have to actually contact the Master inside and stand face-to-face with Him and converse with Him to fully understand who He is. Until then all you'd have is hopes and delusions to satisfy you.

Habitat, on 13 March 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

You even say he has nothing to say that is new.

Habitat, no Master has anything new to say. They all say what has been said again and again by previous Masters. God hasn't changed the way to get Home to Him nor will He ever. If you ever hear a "guru" talking about some new way to reach God you can be assured it's never going to happen.

This Master happens to be the latest in a line of perfect Masters dating back to the mid-19th century in the current "direct line" (but which goes back to Nanak and before Him in "branches" of that line). The current line has more than 75 books written going back nearly 100 years. Anything the present Master could ever write would be no more than a rehash of what the others have so clearly spelled out already. There is nothing new He could add.

The only reason He would ever write another book would be to satisfy His disciples who might want to have something written by HIM. But it's not about Him in any way so He says to read the books that have already been written.

He even says occasionally in His talks all over the world that nothing He is saying is anything that can't be found either in the books or by asking another disciple who has some experience, or by writing to Him directly. But He goes to speak and to answer questions because people want to see Him and hear Him even if nothing "new" is ever said.

Habitat, on 13 March 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

I don't say the guidance of a guru is  necessarily no help, but in the end the individual has to judge whether a  guru is genuine or not, and is putting you on the true path.

Of course. The Masters always say you must first satisfy yourself intellectually, as I've already explained. Only then, after you have asked myriad questions and found satisfactory and logical answers to every one, do you begin the practice. And it is not until then that you finally begin to see that every single thing you were told is 100% fact.

And, as the Masters have all said, not until you have reached the Master "inside," do you literally KNOW everything is true. Only then do you KNOW every moment of your past lives and countless other things because only then are you granted the ability to "see" them in full detail. Only then are you granted a wealth of knowledge and so much more.

Until then all you can do is speculate and believe whatever your ego wants to believe. There is a VAST difference between belief and knowledge but the human ego is such that it often can't tell the difference. Countless people have had some "mystifying" experiences inside and believe they have found much more than they have.

The ones who have really found something amazing in their mystical pursuits believe they have found the absolute truth. The term "enlightened" is often used. "Enlightenment" seems incredible and awe-inspiring but it is a joke. It is nothing but something put there by the negative power to keep one from ever finding the True Path. And those who have even glimpsed it are easy to spot by the things they say and do.

When they have progressed farther they become more and more obvious (well, at least to those who can truly "see"). They have entered what Sri Aurobindo famously described as the "Intermediate Zone."

These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted;what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfilment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfilment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true. ...

... This is quite apart from the well-known danger of actually hostile beings whose sole purpose is to create confusion, falsehood, corruption of the sadhana and disastrous unspiritual error. Anyone allowing himself to be taken hold of by one of these beings, who often take a divine Name, will lose his way in the yoga.

The amusing thing is that Aurobindo recognized this yet he was FAR from being on the right Path himself.

Only one who has attained that knowledge could ever read this thread and be able to separate the "truth" from the "wishes." I am just hoping that a very few 'seekers" might be led in the direction of the truth. To the others I leave their fantasies.

Habitat, on 13 March 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

True  mysticism is the loneliest journey of all, co-opting others as  companions will not help you, in what is, at end, a purely solitary  enterprise. A guru is just another "accident" of your personal history  that needs to be "forgotten" albiet temporarily.

I'm sorry to say habitat, but you don't have any idea about what you speak of. All you have is the very-human ego and the delusions it provides for you. While we are all saddled with that, it must at least become somewhat subdued before we can begin to see that we might need someone else's help in order to attain the greatest gift God has ever made available to anyone who can let go of their own "greatness" long enough to attain it.

You have yet to tell us why so many others whose quotes I have posted are wrong, such as Nanak, Rumi and Kabir. I'm sure it's because you believe you have reached a higher state than them and the many other great Mystics I've quoted who have plainly stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get anywhere mystically without a Master. After all, how could such "lightweights" ever begin to understand what 'habitat" understands?

It's more fun to try to tear apart random statements from an anonymous poster like me by issuing vague generalities that make it appear that you "know" something mysterious. That will surely play well to the handful of people who want everyone to believe they have as well, but the fact that they find your words the least bit "comforting" clearly shows that they too have no knowledge of this subject.

I will ask you yet again, so that you may ignore me yet again, what "path" do you follow?


.

Edited by Shabd Mystic, 13 March 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[Shabd Mystic]

Seeker79, on 13 March 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

"There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted
ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual techniques."
~ Chögyam Trungpa

I could not agree more.

That is comforting to know.  

[Shabd Mystic]

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

without ego you cannot function in the world

Habitat, sometimes the things you say in order to display your profound knowledge of mysticism are absolutely stunning.

Habitat, on 12 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Merely uttering the word "I"  betrays ego.

Maharaj Charan Singh from "The Master Answers" -

Question - I see. In other words, then, whenever we use this personal pronoun, it does not mean that it is the ego or the false "I" speaking?

Answer - No. When I say, "I'm going today", it does not mean the ego is speaking. It is just an expression. After all, this body has to be referred to as something. But "I-ness" is something different. That is the instinct of possession: "Mine", "This is mine", "This is my son", "This is my wife", "This is my Country", "This is my wealth". When the instinct of possession overpowers you, that is "I--ness".




.

[Shabd Mystic]

"Such is the nature of devotion, O brother, when devotion appears, then vanity disappears. True devotion is far from thee. It is the highly fortunate ones who attain it. Give up egotism, efface the distinction of 'mine' and 'thine', and be humble and discriminating like a little ant. Then alone shalt thou be able to pick up and eat the sweet grains of sugar out of the dirt of the world."

~ Vani of Sant Ravidas

[Seeker79]

" I'm sure it's because you believe you have reached a higher state than them and the many other great Mystics"

Is a "mystic" only a perfect master if he/she is famous and have books?

Are they all male? ( honestly I don't know). If so, why?

So far habitat dosn't preach dogmatic religion so yes, I'll put him/her above other "mystics" that preech that way. All this only by way of a true master and negative influential beings is pure cult like nonsense. Anyone developing a cult like following that believes in their purity is the negative influence. All "masters" from Moses, Jhon the baptist, Christ, siddartha, to our great native American holy men, all found their truth by themselves deep in the wilderness alone. Not a single one was enthralled with a cult like leader.

[Seeker79]

Shabd Mystic, on 13 March 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

"Such is the nature of devotion, O brother, when devotion appears, then vanity disappears. True devotion is far from thee. It is the highly fortunate ones who attain it. Give up egotism, efface the distinction of 'mine' and 'thine', and be humble and discriminating like a little ant. Then alone shalt thou be able to pick up and eat the sweet grains of sugar out of the dirt of the world."

~ Vani of Sant Ravidas

Sounds like a dangerouse join my cult message. Devote yourself, give up Identity be small and isignifigant. Ther are classic warning signs here.

[ChloeB]

Seeker79, on 13 March 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Sounds like a dangerouse join my cult message. Devote yourself, give up Identity be small and isignifigant. Ther are classic warning signs here.

Matthew 19:29-30

New International Version (NIV)
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[a] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Matthew 8:21-22

21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Matthew 10:35-37

New International Version (NIV)
35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

One of the criteria for the cult risk evaluation:
Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.  http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html  Separating people from family, friends and outsiders is one of the common themes in cults, is Jesus any different saying these things?