11638 replies to this topic

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well, Puzz's translation is more of a poetic interpretation.

But I agree we should refrain from doing that and stay as close as possible to the original text.

My translation:
"Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela."

Sandbach's:
"Tread softly, for here lies Adela.""

Sandbach's translation is also a poetic interpretation, and not close to the original text.

.

The double negation does not pertain to hlapa = lopen (Eng. walk), but to hastich = gehaast (hastily). Sandbach understood, that the visitor should hold his speed while passing the grave of Adela. A nice translation would be hold your steps or slow down your steps, but I like Sandbach's translation too. Puzz's  interpretation ne = never is simply wrong and gives quite a different meaning to the sentence.

Edited by Knul, 09 February 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 February 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

2.Never equates to the first word: NE

navt/naut is a word.

NAUT in the Frisian Dictionary takes you to:
n-â-we-t 70 und häufiger?, n-ô-we-t, n-â-u-t, n-â-t (3), afries., Pron., Adv.: nhd.
nichts, nicht; ne. nothing, not;

nothing, not.

n-â (1) 4, n-ô, afries., Adv.: nhd. nie, nein; ne. never, no (Interj.)
ne 150 und häufiger?, ni, en (3), afries., Adv.: nhd. nicht, noch, denn; ne. not, yet

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-N.pdf

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

The double negation does not pertain to hlapa = lopen (Eng. walk), but to hastich = gehaast (hastily). Sandbach understood, that the visitor should hold his speed while passing the grave of Adela. A nice translation would be hold your steps or slow down your steps, but I like Sandbach's translation too.

It's not about liking this or that, it is about staying as close to the original text using words with the same meaning that are closest in spelling to those used in the original text.

Well, that is what I prefer above a 'poetic' interpretation.

+++

And yes, ofcourse we know that the double negation pertains "HASTICH", not "HLAPA".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

The problem is your translation is wrong in a literal sense, not that it is wrong explaining what the sentence is all about.

Anyway, about that word "HASTICH":

You say I can't use Dutch, but then you should read this:

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...VMNW&id=ID48292

It's almost the same word - HAESTICH - , and meaning hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden.


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I just say, these words would be related for sure but should not be used if their is a suitable Frisian word. It depends I guess on what you want your translation to be like. Mine will be literally straight as it says and imo have been readable exactly as it is written. How I speak is how I write in English, the OLB imo will be the same, none of this fancy shmancy sentence constructions.

If I wrote 'Never step nor too forcibly' which is exactly how the words are, what makes this wrong 'in a literal sense'?

Absolutely nothing, just because this is not how you might speak now.

Never step - nor be too forcible is a better way to say it but again that is not how the text is written.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Otharus, why do you think CodL would try to correct Ottema on the latter translating the word OD into 'animosity'?

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.

Quote

I mean to say: CodL resepcted Ottema and his erudition. He could instead have asked something like, "Are you sure OD means 'animosity'?

COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.
Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.

Quote

The sentence you translated almost makes it look like CodL knew better then Ottema.

In this case, he did indeed.
He had put a big effort in educating himself.

Quote

And "fertilizing force" is not just another, nicer, more positive, or better sounding expression for the word "animosity", it means something totally different.

Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.
He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.

Quote

Based on what I think - that CodL was one of the co-creators of the OLB - I'd say that CodL was the one who entered that word, OD, into the OLB using what he had read, and was now amazed an erudite person like Ottema translated it into 'animosity'. Like in "Hey, that was not what I meant!"

In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

Edited by Otharus, 09 February 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

n-â (1) 4, n-ô, afries., Adv.: nhd. nie, nein; ne. never, no (Interj.)
ne 150 und häufiger?, ni, en (3), afries., Adv.: nhd. nicht, noch, denn; ne. not, yet

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-N.pdf

Oh yeah, lol, I blew that, I am sure it said never for ne.

OK, still...

'No, step not too forcibly' - I guess hasty could be acceptable but the word is like lopa/lopen/lope, it starts becoming anything you want to interpret it as that way.

Forcibly must have originally been a form of what hasty meant, more forceful than just hasty.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 February 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

It's not about liking this or that, it is about staying as close to the original text using words with the same meaning that are closest in spelling to those used in the original text.

Well, that is what I prefer above a 'poetic' interpretation.

+++

And yes, ofcourse we know that the double negation pertains "HASTICH", not "HLAPA".

.

Quite frankly I really like, TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA - I even suggested that line for Otharus' van - but I certainly agree it is not what the OLB says.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 February 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Oh yeah, lol, I blew that, I am sure it said never for ne.

OK, still...

'No, step not too forcibly' - I guess hasty could be acceptable but the word is like lopa/lopen/lope, it starts becoming anything you want to interpret it as that way.

Forcibly must have originally been a form of what hasty meant, more forceful than just hasty.

It may have meant that, originally. But for a literal translation you should use this "hasty". Even in old Anglo-Frisian or old Anglo-Saxon they would have had the word end with -ig or -ich. Later on these endeing were shortened in English to -y.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm Dutch:

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela
Nie loop niet te haastig want hier leit Adela.  

I wonder how this sentence would be in Afrikaans.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[The Puzzler]

haste (n.)
early 13c., from O.Fr. haste "haste, urgency, hastiness" (12c., Mod.Fr. hâte), from Frankish *haifst "violence," from W.Gmc. *haifstiz (cf. Goth. haifsts "strife," O.E. hæste "violent, vehement, impetuous"). To make haste is recorded by 1530s
http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

violence, vehement, impetuous - forcibly

Many words imo do not mean what we think they might mean, the word is probably more likened to forcibly in the sense of earlier meaning of above meanings, violence, impetuous, esp. vehement that developed into hasty as in urgency, speedy.

Basically do not step violently, impetuously (carelessly and rough) rather than hastily, speedily walking past the gravestone.

[The Puzzler]

That's why softly is the translated word, the opposite of what HASTICH really means: roughly

By using hasty (speedy/hastily) as the word you have immediately made the OLB language seem a newer language.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 February 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 February 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

haste (n.)
early 13c., from O.Fr. haste "haste, urgency, hastiness" (12c., Mod.Fr. hâte), from Frankish *haifst "violence," from W.Gmc. *haifstiz (cf. Goth. haifsts "strife," O.E. hæste "violent, vehement, impetuous"). To make haste is recorded by 1530s
http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

violence, vehement, impetuous - forcibly

Many words imo do not mean what we think they might mean, the word is probably more likened to forcibly in the sense of earlier meaning of above meanings, violence, impetuous, esp. vehement that developed into hasty as in urgency, speedy.

Basically do not step violently, impetuously (carelessly and rough) rather than hastily, speedily walking past the gravestone.

This is what HASTICH is said to mean according to that Dutch etymology site I linked to: hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden


Forcibly or violently would not make much sense in this case. It is more about not paying attention to someone you should respect the grave of when you pass by. So thoughtless or careless would be better, I think.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

This is what HASTICH is said to mean according to that Dutch etymology site I linked to: hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden


Forcibly or violently would not make much sense in this case. It is more about not paying attention to someone you should respect the grave of when you pass by. So thoughtless or careless would be better, I think.

It makes sense imo.

But I agree thoughtlessly and carelessly are good words if you want to interpret the original meaning of haste, back to forcible (roughly) and back to the original meaning. Opposite of softly as well.

But hasty as in speedy, premature, fast acting are imo later meanings that came through but not what the OLB hastich means, which is forcible ie; (roughly/violently or thoughtlessly, carelessly).

That is why hasty should not be used.

Back tomorrow.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 February 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Abramelin]

This is what Google Translator makes out of 'hasty', and please click both links:

http://translate.goo...nl/#en|nl|hasty

http://translate.goo...ig overhaastig

The whole thing about 'forcibly' is this:

Suppose I have to write a rather important letter/email very fast. In that case I 'force' myself to put something, anything on paper and be done with it. And making mistakes as a I 'hurry' along.

OK Puzz, sleep well.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 09 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.


COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.
Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.


In this case, he did indeed.
He had put a big effort in educating himself.


Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.
He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.


In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

I may be ignorant of CodL's letters and diary, but not about his intelligence.

That is one of the first things I understood, and not just by his library.

+++

"In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD."

Or it is just nothing but your misinterpretation of the sentence and that point? It is not a point/period, like I already said: it is a connecting underscore between DRAMA and WRALDAS. Even the scan you posted showed that it was a connecting underscore, not a period/point:



But you could have said it was a hastily written point/period.

++++++++

EDIT:

I think we all here agree how important these dots and lines are for translating the OLB correctly.

It's also not a distraction from what is 'really' important like someone here has said.

It gives me a pain in the head, all this fuss about a word or even a dot, but it's something we will have to go through if we want a correct translation. And that means a better one than Ottema's/Sandbach's which is riddled with errors, blatant mistakes, and wrong interpretations.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 09 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.


COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.
Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.


In this case, he did indeed.
He had put a big effort in educating himself.


Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.
He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.


In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

How do you measure, that Ottema was less intelligent than Over de Linden ?