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norse giants. Sons of Ymir


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#1    granpa

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 04:43 PM

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller
Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring
Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller
Hymir
Mímir
Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#2    Abramelin

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:59 PM

View Postgranpa, on 28 August 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller
Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring
Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller
Hymir
Mímir
Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

You could start with the posting the sources that made you come to this conclusion.


#3    Ryu

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:57 PM

When it comes to mythology or anything for that matter..I certainly would not rely on wikipedia as a "reliable" source nor would I rely on it as my only source.


You are better off going to sites that specialize in Norse mythology. Just use a search engine and you'll find plenty of sources that are far more reliable than wikipedia.

Edited by Ryu, 28 August 2011 - 06:58 PM.


#4    Hideout

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:04 PM

View Postgranpa, on 28 August 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller
Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring
Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller
Hymir
Mímir
Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir
Better find someone that speaks Old Norse (not Norwegian, which is probably why Google translate didn't work). I don't know if anyone on this website will be able to give you an accurate translation or not.

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#5    grendals_bane

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 03:56 PM

View PostHideout, on 28 August 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

Better find someone that speaks Old Norse (not Norwegian, which is probably why Google translate didn't work). I don't know if anyone on this website will be able to give you an accurate translation or not.

You might find the following useful, a translation of the Poetic Edda in English with the other in Old Norse. They both make mention of some of the giants.

English

Old Norse

I am no expert on Old Norse language but I think Bergelmir may come from the Old Norse Bergrisi meaning Hill Giant.

Also the suffix mir may stem from the word Hilmir meaning Chief.

Again I am no expert on the subject so don't quote it as fact.

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#6    granpa

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:21 PM

http://www.cybersamu...dic/Voluspo.htm

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#7    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:36 PM

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.
From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#8    grendals_bane

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:34 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.
From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

That is only the etymology of the modern word "mir" in German, which is related to but not the same as Old Norse. Both languages evolved from a Proto-Germanic language but they occupy a different branch, Old Norse is North Germanic and High German is a Western Germanic language. Therefore it would be better to compare the word "mir" to other North Germanic languages first as there will be more chance of finding a link.


Below is a list of some Germanic words for "Me".

North Germanic languages
Norwegian: Me = Meg
Swedish:   Me = Mig
Danish:    Me = Mig

West Germanic languages
German:  Me = Mir
Dutch:   Me = Me
English: Me = Me

Anglo-Saxon*: Me = Mec

*Anglo-Saxon is much closer to Old Norse than of the other West German languages.

The modern German word for "Me" may look more like the North Germanic versions but it is pronounced completely different. The North Germanic words shown above are all pronounced like MY, while the first part of the German word sounds like ME.

Edited by grendals_bane, 29 August 2011 - 05:35 PM.

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#9    granpa

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:52 PM

any connection between mir-world and heimr-home?

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#10    granpa

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:54 PM

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/home

Word Origin & History

home
O.E. ham "dwelling, house, estate, village," from P.Gmc. *khaim- (cf. O.Fris. hem "home, village," O.N. heimr "residence, world," heima "home," Ger. heim "home," Goth. haims "village"), from PIE base *kei- "to lie, settle down" (cf. Gk. kome, Lith. kaimas "village;" O.C.S. semija "domestic servants").

Edited by granpa, 29 August 2011 - 06:19 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#11    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:25 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.
From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

True, root “mir” used to designate the existence, the being, then it gradually became “peace”, but the old meaning is kept in the word “svemir” (universe): sve (all)+mir(that is).

And numerous Slavic names like Zvonimir, Damir, Slavomir etc. still carry the old meaning mir=being, though people today often mistake it for mir=peace. It’s not for example Damir “peace giver” but “existence giver”. (“da” from “dati”, “davati”, “daje” = to give, giving, gives). Or Slavomir (slava=glory, mir=existence, he who exists in glory or he who creates the glory). Etc, etc :D
  
If it is the same root word from which Norse “mir” comes, by the Slavic linguistic logic, each “something-mir” would be something-giver or something-existing...  like Bergelmir – he who is the mountain or he who exists like mountain or even who makes mountains exist.


(Note for those who watch too many lawyering shows: This was just my take on the whole thing, don’t molest me with "show me the link" routine. I'm the source regarding my own mother's tongue, I'm here for a talk, not for a trial, take my two linguistic cents or leave it, K? :D )

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#12    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:34 AM

That's interesting Helen, thanks for adding your 2 cents.  :tu:

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#13    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:57 AM

View Postgranpa, on 29 August 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/home

Word Origin & History

home
O.E. ham "dwelling, house, estate, village," from P.Gmc. *khaim- (cf. O.Fris. hem "home, village," O.N. heimr "residence, world," heima "home," Ger. heim "home," Goth. haims "village"), from PIE base *kei- "to lie, settle down" (cf. Gk. kome, Lith. kaimas "village;" O.C.S. semija "domestic servants").
Heimr, if it was hei-mir might mean - he-being or existance..world, maybe like Wralda in the OLB. Maybe..? if hei means he or something like it.
In Scots it does, otherwise it's mostly comparable to heath(land).

Scots[edit] Pronoun hei

1.(South Scots, personal) he


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hei

Wralda, who I identify in Sami culture as Waralden Olmai is alot like this imo.
Raedie, Väraldarade or Waralden Olmai - The main god, the great creator of the world; he was, however, passive, some say even sleeping, and not very included in active religion.
http://en.wikipedia..../Sami_shamanism

He is the creator but also the world. I note heim as well as heimr, maybe the r sound just dropped off after a while and lost the earlier 2 syllable sound - hei-mir to heimr to heim.

Just thinking.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 August 2011 - 11:59 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#14    granpa

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=here

hi-mir = this world (this place)?

seems like it should be dwelling-place.

Edited by granpa, 30 August 2011 - 12:27 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#15    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:29 PM

View Postgranpa, on 30 August 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=here

hi-mir = this world (this place)?
Maybe but their is no hei in it. Only hi or hier.

In an mmm bop it's gone...




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