Iraq 'no more safe than in 2003'

[Talon]

Iraq 'no more safe than in 2003'

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has acknowledged that security in Iraq has not improved statistically since Saddam Hussein's fall in 2003.

Mr Rumsfeld told the BBC insurgents crossed Iraq's "porous" borders from Iran, Syria and elsewhere.

But he said Iraq's military forces were growing in numbers and he was confident the insurgency would be defeated.

On Tuesday, at least 22 people were killed in a suicide bombing in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk.

Police say most of the dead were civil servants lining up outside a government-owned bank to get their salaries or pensions.

They believe the bomber walked up to the queue with up to 30kg (66lbs) of explosives hidden under his clothes.

Among the 50 people wounded were 10 children, who had small stalls on the side of the road.

More than 900 people, mostly Iraqis, have died in insurgent attacks across the country since the government of Prime Minister Ibrahim Jafaari took office six weeks ago.

The latest violence came as Mr Jaafari's 37-member cabinet and its programme secured a vote of confidence in the Iraqi National Assembly.

The Shia-dominated government, which was finalised on 8 May, was overwhelmingly approved by a show of hands in the 275-member transitional parliament.

Belief in the future

In an interview for the BBC's Newsnight programme, Mr Rumsfeld said Iraq had passed several milestones, like holding elections and appointing a government.

He said that efforts had shifted from counter-insurgency to helping the Iraqi security forces.

"The important thing ... is to recognise that this insurgency is going to be defeated not by the coalition - it's going to be defeated by the Iraqi people and by the Iraqi security forces, and that it's going to happen as the Iraq people begin to believe they've got a future in that country," he said.

He added that Syria was not doing enough to stop the insurgency and that Iran was meddling in Iraqi politics.

Rivalry

Tuesday's explosion took place near a bridge over the road, and people were killed both on the bridge and on the ground, the Associated Press news agency reported.

At least one report says bodies are trapped under the rubble.

Kirkuk, 290km (180miles) north of Baghdad, is an ethnically mixed city wanted by the Kurds as the capital of their autonomous region in the north. It houses communities of Kurds, Arabs and Turkmen vying for control.

Correspondents say the city, a major oil-producing centre, has been the focus of intense ethnic rivalry since Saddam Hussein's fall from power.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ast/4090626.stm

[Fluffybunny]

I think that it is no surprise that the country is not any safer than it was 2 years ago. When we went in many many people felt that we did not have the resources or support to be able to control the situation there, and that has been the case since day one.

I will be willing to bet that in another 2 years we will be having the same discussion and that thousands more of our soldiers will be dead, and tens of thousands more will be injured.

There is no concrete plan to get out; and until enough people get fed up with the endless expense(monetary and in life) and start to speak up...

[__Kratos__]

Dick Cheny said something about 2009... Iraq needs to start help its self out a little bit more.

[Celumnaz]

I think there's a few places in this world that are even less safe than Iraq, and have gotten worse since 2003...

Germany wasn't rebuilt in a day.

[Talon]

Bomb kills five marines in Iraq

A bomb has killed five US marines near the western Iraqi town of Ramadi, a rebel stronghold where a similar blast also killed five marines last week.

In the latest attack, a bomb went off as the marines' vehicle was passing on Wednesday, the US military said.

Combat operations were in progress at the time, American spokesman Maj Wes Hayes told AFP news agency.

At least 1,705 US military personnel have died in Iraq since the invasion in March 2003, news agencies report.

Last Thursday, a bomb killed five marines at Haqlaniya, just outside Ramadi.

Tough challenge

Ramadi, a town of 400,000 and the capital of Anbar Province, has long been a focus of resistance by Sunni Muslim rebels.

US marines charged with keeping order are said to have found the level of resistance on a par with Falluja, with some districts virtual no-go areas.

The US military releases few details of attacks like that on Wednesday, saying they want to try to protect their soldiers, the BBC's Caroline Hawley reports.

But more than two years since the war, roadside explosions targeting military vehicles are still the biggest threat to American troops, she adds.

In other violence on Wednesday, militants attacked Iraqi security forces and civilians in and around Baghdad, killing at least 39 people in three separate attacks.

At least 26 Iraqi soldiers were killed in the first blast, caused by a suicide bomber wearing an Iraqi army uniform.

Hours later, a suicide car bomber slammed into a police patrol in the south of the capital, killing eight.

A mortar attack in Baghdad, which appeared to fall short of a police station in the Shurta district, left five civilians dead. US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged this week that Iraq was statistically no safer than it was just after the war.

Since a new elected government was sworn in late in April, well over 1,000 people, most of them Iraqis, have died.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ast/4098178.stm

[whoa182]

I bet there is a lot of 'GOOD' stuff happening in iraq that we don't hear about.

[SnakeProphet]

I bet there is a lot of 'GOOD' stuff happening in iraq that we don't hear about.

I bet there isn't.Not for the Iraqi people.

[__Kratos__]

I bet there is a lot of 'GOOD' stuff happening in iraq that we don't hear about.

680271[/snapback]

There is a lot of good happening in Iraq and for the Iraqi people. The media gets better ratings and the papers sell more papers with misery and suffering then they do with giving the Iraqi people food, water, shelter, protetion, schools, basic services, freedom, and democracy.

[SnakeProphet]

people food, water, shelter, protetion,

Wouldn't be neccesary without war.

freedom, and democracy.

Again,why do you think they want your democracy?

[__Kratos__]

people food, water, shelter, protetion,

Wouldn't be neccesary without war.

680675[/snapback]

Yeah... cause Saddam did such a great job in all those areas including protection.

A lot of the Iraqi's want democracy... they just don't like the upset in their life because of the transfer between a hated dicator and freedom to speech without the fear of being shot in the head.

[SnakeProphet]

Yeah... cause Saddam did such a great job in all those areas including protection.

Indeed. The place is infested with terrorists.Not even one has been there before the war.

A lot of the Iraqi's want democracy...

Really?So why didn't you let them choose what kind of government they want to have?Why do they HAVE to have a democracy?

Edited June 16, 2005 by Snake_6024

[__Kratos__]

Because we invaded... along with all the other countries that support the cause. If they really want to be another goverment set-up they can voice their thoughts in democracy to change it to whatever they want it to be.

[SnakeProphet]

Because we invaded... along with all the other countries that support the cause. If they really want to be another goverment set-up they can voice their thoughts in democracy to change it to whatever they want it to be.

Of course.And the US will let them set up a dictatorship.....

[__Kratos__]

I doubt it...

We are still over there is to mess up some terorists and to help the Iraqi people. Could you think of living all your life in fear and then one day, you get all this freedom? Change is good!

[SnakeProphet]

We are still over there is to mess up some terorists and to help the Iraqi people. Could you think of living all your life in fear and then one day, you get all this freedom? Change is good!

Why do you think they lived in fear?It seems that Saddam has limitied his crimes against humanity to a minimum in the last few years.No ridiculous threats to other countries as well(and he didn't threaten the USA,please don't come up with that).It seems they were pretty much safe before the war.

As for the freedom.Being able to choose a dictatorship would be freedom.But aside from that,why do you think they even want your freedom?

[__Kratos__]

We are still over there is to mess up some terorists and to help the Iraqi people. Could you think of living all your life in fear and then one day, you get all this freedom? Change is good!

Why do you think they lived in fear?It seems that Saddam has limitied his crimes against humanity to a minimum in the last few years.No ridiculous threats to other countries as well(and he didn't threaten the USA,please don't come up with that).It seems they were pretty much safe before the war.

As for the freedom.Being able to choose a dictatorship would be freedom.But aside from that,why do you think they even want your freedom?

682118[/snapback]

Who wouldn't want basic freedoms? Yes, if they really desire a dictator and vote on it, as they said in the past: "It is our country!".

[SnakeProphet]

Who wouldn't want basic freedoms? Yes, if they really desire a dictator and vote on it, as they said in the past: "It is our country!".

There obviously are problems with freedom.Or did you think the terrorists woke up one day and said:

Ah,screw the better life the USA has made possible for us.?

[__Kratos__]

^ Yes, our freedom includes FREEDOM for all. Their idea of freedom is to select freedom for groups. They believe women should have no rights at all. do you agree with them?

[Space Commander Travis]

Freedom includes freedom to disagree perhaps?

Why do you think they lived in fear?It seems that Saddam has limitied his crimes against humanity to a minimum in the last few years.No ridiculous threats to other countries as well(and he didn't threaten the USA,please don't come up with that).It seems they were pretty much safe before the war.

And that gets him off the hook? "Look, i haven't gassed thousands of Kurds and bulldozed them into mass graves for a few years, come on guys, gimme a break" ? They were safe ... ? But can you imagine anyone in Saddam's Iraq being able to talk about Saddam the way we do about Bush and Blair?

[SnakeProphet]

And that gets him off the hook? "Look, i haven't gassed thousands of Kurds and bulldozed them into mass graves for a few years, come on guys, gimme a break" ? They were safe ... ? But can you imagine anyone in Saddam's Iraq being able to talk about Saddam the way we do about Bush and Blair?

The point is:What is the greater evil?

Saddam held the country together.No terrorists have been there.Now Iraq has turned into US vs Terrorist battlefield.Thousands of civilians have to suffer,and it isn't going to end soon.

[Space Commander Travis]

The point is:What is the greater evil?

Saddam held the country together.No terrorists have been there.Now Iraq has turned into US vs Terrorist battlefield.Thousands of civilians have to suffer,and it isn't going to end soon.

684477[/snapback]

Saddam may have held the country together; but surely it was similar to the way Stalin held his country together?

I'm not saying I believe all the reasons that were given for war; or that i think the tactics that have been used to maintain the 'peace' were neccesarily the right ones; but let's not lose sight of just how monstrous Saddam's regime was.

[SnakeProphet]

Saddam may have held the country together; but surely it was similar to the way Stalin held his country together?

I'm not saying I believe all the reasons that were given for war; or that i think the tactics that have been used to maintain the 'peace' were neccesarily the right ones; but let's not lose sight of just how monstrous Saddam's regime was.

Yes,it was monstrous.But it propably was better for the Iraqis to wait out his death,rather than let their country turn into a battlefield,with them standing in the crossfire.

[Faeden]

I find it a huge insult to human intelligence and the Iraqi people when people suggest that America and Britain are trying to help the people of Iraq. They claim Saddam was an evil dictator, which he most certainly was, but this is the constant boring excuse that American and British pro war people use for the American/British (illegal) invasion of Iraq. Isn’t it strange that as we speak other evil dictators in countries in Africa are doing things that Saddam Hussein did and America and Britain have no interest in "freeing" the people of these suppressed African dictatorship countries by invading them, could it be I wonder that these African countries are not oil rich countries I wonder? Is it only coincidence that America and Britain only want to "free" the suppressed countries that are oil rich? why isn’t America and the UK invading the countries in Africa where its leaders have been slaughtering its people just like Saddam did in Iraq, how strange that America and Britain only seem interested in bringing "freedom" (sorry I mean terror and war) to countries they know they can suck oil out of? Perhaps I am just stupid and its all just a strange coincidence?

Wake up and smell the coffee Learn some interesting truths about the so called "war on terror" HERE

All the best

Faeden

Edited June 18, 2005 by Faeden

[Novo]

How would you feel, if some guy from cuba came up to your window with a gun barrell pointed in? How would you feel if the cubans were the world power, And they invaded America (To bring "Freedom" and "Communism" of course) Most of you here would probably go down with guns blazing (You Christian Extremists) Maybe that reverse scenario will help you understand how the Iraqis feel.

[SnakeProphet]

I find it a huge insult to human intelligence

Indeed it is.And now they are going for Iran.With the exact same tactic they used for Iraq.THAT is an insult to human intelligence.

How would you feel, if some guy from cuba came up to your window with a gun barrell pointed in? How would you feel if the cubans were the world power, And they invaded America (To bring "Freedom" and "Communism" of course) Most of you here would probably go down with guns blazing (You Christian Extremists) Maybe that reverse scenario will help you understand how the Iraqis feel.

Exactly.

PS. I like your signature, Novo.So true.