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Ron Paul to Congress: Stop Worshipping Israel


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#136    sam12six

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:49 AM

View Postacidhead, on 25 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I believe if you search back it was GOV intervention which created those monopolies.

I believe that was a "chicken or the egg" situation. Companies got help from government officials who used them to get rich themselves (almost like virtually every government official in history, including our current ones).

The point was that without government regulation a startup can never get a fair opportunity against well financed bigger companies. The regulation I like is that which forces everyone to "play fair". That I dislike (which we have way too much of today) is that which gives the biggest and most profitable companies advantages, like the massive red tape costs involved in bringing new pharmaceutical products to the market.

Without regulation, Home Depot could tell power tool manufacturers not to sell to mom and pop companies or they'd get their tools elsewhere. To someone who believes in the magic of the market, someone else will just pop up and start buying those tools instead, but realistically Makita would take the millions of drills Home Depot orders over the dozens a small company might order in a heartbeat. Unless you've got an absolutely marketbreaking new product, there's no way to compete with a company with much deeper pockets without someone placing limits on how they operate.


#137    acidhead

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

The first rule of economics is scarcity.  This is important.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#138    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

View PostYamato, on 30 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Amen, Dr. Paul.



This posted speech is entitled "How to End the Tragedy in Gaza" in it Ron Paul states:

US foreign policy being so one-sided actually results in more loss of life and of security on both sides. Surely Israelis do not enjoy the threat of missiles from Gaza nor do the Palestinians enjoy their Israel-imposed inhuman conditions in Gaza. But as long as Israel can count on its destructive policies being underwritten by the US taxpayer it can continue to engage in reckless behavior. And as long as the Palestinians feel the one-sided US presence lined up against them they will continue to resort to more and more deadly and desperate measures.  
Continuing to rain down missiles on so many increasingly resentful nations, the US is undermining rather than furthering its security. We are on a collision course with much of the rest of the world if we do not right our foreign policy. Ending interventionism in the Middle East and replacing it with friendship and even-handedness would be a welcome first step.

Full transcript available here: http://paul.house.go...=2030&Itemid=69


It very apparent by recent congressional actions that few in congress share RP's views.

239 members of the US Congress just signed a letter addressed to the President condemning the PLO's recent win of its UN observer status, and threatens to cut funding to UN international agencies that grant membership to the PLO.

It's pathetic how America continues to cut itself off from the world.


Letter to President Obama ---

A Majority of Members of Congress Sign Ros-Lehtinen Letter Urging Consequences for Palestinians, UN over Unilateral Statehood Push

Dear Mr. President:

Your Administration discouraged the Palestinian leadership from pursuing non-member state observer status at the United Nations and took a firm stance in both voting “no” and encouraging other nations to do the same, and we appreciate those efforts.  

We are deeply disappointed and upset that the Palestinian leadership rebuffed the entreaties of your Administration and the Congress and insisted on pursuing this distinctly unhelpful initiative.  This Palestinian action violated both the letter and spirit of the Oslo Accords, and it opened the door for expanded Palestinian efforts to attack, isolate, and delegitimize Israel in a variety of international forums—a threat which, even if unrealized, would hang over Israel’s head during any future negotiation or any effort by the Israeli government to defend its citizens from terrorism.

This is a truly unfortunate outcome.  History has shown that direct talks are the only means for resolving disputes between Israel and its neighbors.  Direct talks were the path that brought peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and between Israel and Jordan.  Direct talks also led to the Oslo agreements between Israel and the PLO, and the PLO pledged in Oslo that it would take no unilateral action to change the status of the West Bank and Gaza.

Now PLO Chairman Abbas has violated that signed agreement.  Accordingly, we believe the United States must respond strongly to the Palestinian leadership’s failure to uphold its obligations.   First, we must send a clear message of disapproval, beyond our negative vote, with Chairman Abbas and the PLO’s decision to seek a UN status upgrade at the General Assembly.  One important way of expressing U.S. disapproval would be to send the message that such actions are not cost-free and that, at a minimum, they result in setbacks to U.S.-Palestinian relations.   We can do this by closing the PLO office in Washington, D.C.  We can also call our Consul-General in Jerusalem home for consultations. We urge you to take these steps.  

Second, we stand ready to work with you and commit to using every means at our disposal to ensure that this General Assembly vote does not serve as a precedent for elevating the status of the PLO in other UN bodies or international forums.  Over the past year, Palestinian leaders have indicated an intention to apply for full membership in the International Criminal Court and over a dozen other international institutions in order to assert Palestinian claims against Israel.  Such efforts would not only unfairly target our Israeli ally, but would devastate efforts to resume the peace process and do possibly irreparable harm to those international institutions.  We should do everything possible to make sure that does not happen, including by reaffirming our commitment to maintaining and enforcing U.S. laws that require withholding U.S. contributions from any international forum that grants membership to the PLO.

Thank you for your consideration, and we look forward to your response.

Check to see if your congressmen signed it:

http://www.scribd.co...bqtlem1ftdesloz

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 26 December 2012 - 08:07 PM.


#139    and then

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

I think that few agree with RP's ideas because they recognize what the result of cutting off support of Israel would cause.  He wants us to withdraw from the world stage and cede the power we have there now to China, Russia or whoever has the will to seize it. It isn't realistic and it will lead to worse chaos.  But I can see how it would appeal to the PC crowd.  Yes, that "evenhandedness" sounds all warm and cuddly but it's actually just a euphemism for betrayal of Israel.  And the truth is that if you likened the situation to a big brother keeping the roughs away from the little brother it really would be more like this:  Half a dozen tough guys want to beat the little guy to death and we keep them away but if we just walked away?  The little guy would pull an Uzi from under his coat.
Israel will survive.  US support of Israel is good IMO, but not a deciding factor in the fate of this nation any longer.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#140    acidhead

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

I think that few agree with RP's ideas because they recognize what the result of cutting off support of Israel would cause.  He wants us to withdraw from the world stage and cede the power we have there now to China, Russia or whoever has the will to seize it. It isn't realistic and it will lead to worse chaos.  But I can see how it would appeal to the PC crowd.  Yes, that "evenhandedness" sounds all warm and cuddly but it's actually just a euphemism for betrayal of Israel.  And the truth is that if you likened the situation to a big brother keeping the roughs away from the little brother it really would be more like this:  Half a dozen tough guys want to beat the little guy to death and we keep them away but if we just walked away?  The little guy would pull an Uzi from under his coat.
Israel will survive.  US support of Israel is good IMO, but not a deciding factor in the fate of this nation any longer.

If you actually listened to Ron Paul he has stated many times that Israel has the right to protect itself.  They have the capability to destroy anybody who threatens them with their advanced air force and nuclear weapons.  Israel isn't no little brother to the average American citizen...... they are still considered a minority to the average american.  That analogy reeks of propaganda.  Maybe Israel is like your lil brother in some school yard but to the average american Israel is a bully in the ME.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

View Postacidhead, on 26 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

If you actually listened to Ron Paul he has stated many times that Israel has the right to protect itself.  They have the capability to destroy anybody who threatens them with their advanced air force and nuclear weapons.  Israel isn't no little brother to the average American citizen...... they are still considered a minority to the average american.  That analogy reeks of propaganda.  Maybe Israel is like your lil brother in some school yard but to the average american Israel is a bully in the ME.
I'm sure that he has.  And I am not saying the US has an obligation to cover for every illegal or immoral thing an Israeli government does...I believe they are chosen by God - but they are Not God Himself.  If you are correct that they possess force enough to defeat any comer then why not just let them?  The US exerts tremendous pressure economically to reign in those who would just strike and end the threat against their people.  No one acknowledges this in their calculations.  Nukes of course are almost immaterial to an argument since they can never be used - or used only once in retribution.  And without spare parts, restocks of weapons  and fuel a war against several Arab nations who were truly united would not be won by Israel I think.  Very great destruction could be wrought but an ultimate victory will only come by finding peace or actually annihilating all their enemies - which of course would destroy the soul of their state.  Most Americans still support Israel.  I'm not sure which poll you have found that says other wise but I have seen them consistently in the 60% range pro Israel.

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#142    acidhead

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm sure that he has.  And I am not saying the US has an obligation to cover for every illegal or immoral thing an Israeli government does...I believe they are chosen by God - but they are Not God Himself.  If you are correct that they possess force enough to defeat any comer then why not just let them?  The US exerts tremendous pressure economically to reign in those who would just strike and end the threat against their people.  No one acknowledges this in their calculations.  Nukes of course are almost immaterial to an argument since they can never be used - or used only once in retribution.  And without spare parts, restocks of weapons  and fuel a war against several Arab nations who were truly united would not be won by Israel I think.  Very great destruction could be wrought but an ultimate victory will only come by finding peace or actually annihilating all their enemies - which of course would destroy the soul of their state.  Most Americans still support Israel.  I'm not sure which poll you have found that says other wise but I have seen them consistently in the 60% range pro Israel.

You want to know just how ****ed up the average american is?  If Israel was bombed to oblivion tomorrow some would weep but by next week all that would matter to most is how to pay the rent, put food on the table and what TV programs or videos games are to be watched or played.   Nobody cares except for themselves.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#143    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

I think that few agree with RP's ideas because they recognize what the result of cutting off support of Israel would cause.  He wants us to withdraw from the world stage and cede the power we have there now to China, Russia or whoever has the will to seize it. It isn't realistic and it will lead to worse chaos.  But I can see how it would appeal to the PC crowd.  Yes, that "evenhandedness" sounds all warm and cuddly but it's actually just a euphemism for betrayal of Israel.  And the truth is that if you likened the situation to a big brother keeping the roughs away from the little brother it really would be more like this:  Half a dozen tough guys want to beat the little guy to death and we keep them away but if we just walked away?  The little guy would pull an Uzi from under his coat.
Israel will survive.  US support of Israel is good IMO, but not a deciding factor in the fate of this nation any longer.

Betrayal of Israel?

What about betrayal to the American taxpayer and our great country who these clowns in Congress supposedly represent by their blind allegiance to the Zionist agenda?

I don't think any other nation on this planet will rush in to provide Israel with the over $3 billion that the US taxpayers provides annually for it.

If the US grew a pair and actually withdrew all support from Israel, Israel would not exist as the militaristic Apartheid state that it currently is. They perhaps may learn to compromise if they want to survive.


#144    and then

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 26 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Betrayal of Israel?

What about betrayal to the American taxpayer and our great country who these clowns in Congress supposedly represent by their blind allegiance to the Zionist agenda?

I don't think any other nation on this planet will rush in to provide Israel with the over $3 billion that the US taxpayers provides annually for it.

If the US grew a pair and actually withdrew all support from Israel, Israel would not exist as the militaristic Apartheid state that it currently is. They perhaps may learn to compromise if they want to survive.
That is my point exactly.  Even Canada, which currently has a pro Israel government would/could not provide such support.  Governments use their money for the exercise of control.  The situation between Israel and their neighbors has been a tinder box for years.  It can and eventually will trigger a global war.   Is there a single member here who understands the jeopardy of leaving Israel to it's own devices long term?  I hear all those who spit on the country and artfully call for it's destruction but is there even ONE who can see and admit that that course might prove to be a really bad outcome for all of us?  There are a lot of very intelligent people here at UM and it boggles my mind that all would be so PC or animated by animosity that they cannot just be honest about this point.  Israel is a country of about 7 million people.  They are surrounded by 100 million who want them dead.  If some external force does not restrain those 100 million then they eventually will come against this small state.  Do you really believe Israel can stand alone?  More importantly, do you really believe that Israel would just allow itself to be over run?  There IS NO compromise that leaves Israel intact.  The PA came into being as it's predecessor in 1964 -calling for the liberation of a Palestine that still possessed (sort of) Gaza and the west bank.  So what land did Arafat want to liberate?  The answer is obvious...every square inch of the land Israel was formed on.  The world will burn before that happens, yet the world happily moves toward it's fate singing that Palestinian tune as they go.  It would almost be comical if it weren't sheer madness.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#145    Black Red Devil

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 26 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Letter to President Obama ---

A Majority of Members of Congress Sign Ros-Lehtinen Letter Urging Consequences for Palestinians, UN over Unilateral Statehood Push

Dear Mr. President:

Your Administration discouraged the Palestinian leadership from pursuing non-member state observer status at the United Nations and took a firm stance in both voting “no” and encouraging other nations to do the same, and we appreciate those efforts.  

We are deeply disappointed and upset that the Palestinian leadership rebuffed the entreaties of your Administration and the Congress and insisted on pursuing this distinctly unhelpful initiative.  This Palestinian action violated both the letter and spirit of the Oslo Accords, and it opened the door for expanded Palestinian efforts to attack, isolate, and delegitimize Israel in a variety of international forums—a threat which, even if unrealized, would hang over Israel’s head during any future negotiation or any effort by the Israeli government to defend its citizens from terrorism.

This is a truly unfortunate outcome.  History has shown that direct talks are the only means for resolving disputes between Israel and its neighbors.  Direct talks were the path that brought peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and between Israel and Jordan.  Direct talks also led to the Oslo agreements between Israel and the PLO, and the PLO pledged in Oslo that it would take no unilateral action to change the status of the West Bank and Gaza.

Now PLO Chairman Abbas has violated that signed agreement.  Accordingly, we believe the United States must respond strongly to the Palestinian leadership’s failure to uphold its obligations.   First, we must send a clear message of disapproval, beyond our negative vote, with Chairman Abbas and the PLO’s decision to seek a UN status upgrade at the General Assembly.  One important way of expressing U.S. disapproval would be to send the message that such actions are not cost-free and that, at a minimum, they result in setbacks to U.S.-Palestinian relations.   We can do this by closing the PLO office in Washington, D.C.  We can also call our Consul-General in Jerusalem home for consultations. We urge you to take these steps.  

Second, we stand ready to work with you and commit to using every means at our disposal to ensure that this General Assembly vote does not serve as a precedent for elevating the status of the PLO in other UN bodies or international forums.  Over the past year, Palestinian leaders have indicated an intention to apply for full membership in the International Criminal Court and over a dozen other international institutions in order to assert Palestinian claims against Israel.  Such efforts would not only unfairly target our Israeli ally, but would devastate efforts to resume the peace process and do possibly irreparable harm to those international institutions.  We should do everything possible to make sure that does not happen, including by reaffirming our commitment to maintaining and enforcing U.S. laws that require withholding U.S. contributions from any international forum that grants membership to the PLO.

Thank you for your consideration, and we look forward to your response.

Check to see if your congressmen signed it:

http://www.scribd.co...bqtlem1ftdesloz

So many inaccuracies and false innuendo's in this letter that you would think it was written by some backbencher in the Knesset.  It's apparent the US Congress remains deaf to the alarm bells tingling from across the Atlantic.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 27 December 2012 - 01:49 AM.

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#146    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

That is my point exactly.  Even Canada, which currently has a pro Israel government would/could not provide such support.  Governments use their money for the exercise of control.  The situation between Israel and their neighbors has been a tinder box for years.  It can and eventually will trigger a global war.   Is there a single member here who understands the jeopardy of leaving Israel to it's own devices long term?  I hear all those who spit on the country and artfully call for it's destruction but is there even ONE who can see and admit that that course might prove to be a really bad outcome for all of us?  There are a lot of very intelligent people here at UM and it boggles my mind that all would be so PC or animated by animosity that they cannot just be honest about this point.  Israel is a country of about 7 million people.  They are surrounded by 100 million who want them dead.  If some external force does not restrain those 100 million then they eventually will come against this small state.  Do you really believe Israel can stand alone?  More importantly, do you really believe that Israel would just allow itself to be over run?  There IS NO compromise that leaves Israel intact.  The PA came into being as it's predecessor in 1964 -calling for the liberation of a Palestine that still possessed (sort of) Gaza and the west bank.  So what land did Arafat want to liberate?  The answer is obvious...every square inch of the land Israel was formed on.  The world will burn before that happens, yet the world happily moves toward it's fate singing that Palestinian tune as they go.  It would almost be comical if it weren't sheer madness.

Actually what's insanely comical is the way the US has become Israel's b****.

What's sheer madness is like all battered wives how the US keeps going back for more instead of leaving it's abusive spouse.


#147    and then

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 27 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Actually what's insanely comical is the way the US has become Israel's b****.

What's sheer madness is like all battered wives how the US keeps going back for more instead of leaving it's abusive spouse.
So you see no danger in my concerns at all.  You do realize that at some point the game isn't going to be carried by raw hatred alone, right?  Eventually it'll be time to put up or shut up.  And when the party starts it will be way too late to change course.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
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#148    acidhead

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

That is my point exactly.  Even Canada, which currently has a pro Israel government would/could not provide such support.  Governments use their money for the exercise of control.  The situation between Israel and their neighbors has been a tinder box for years.  It can and eventually will trigger a global war.   Is there a single member here who understands the jeopardy of leaving Israel to it's own devices long term?  I hear all those who spit on the country and artfully call for it's destruction but is there even ONE who can see and admit that that course might prove to be a really bad outcome for all of us?  There are a lot of very intelligent people here at UM and it boggles my mind that all would be so PC or animated by animosity that they cannot just be honest about this point.  Israel is a country of about 7 million people.  They are surrounded by 100 million who want them dead.  If some external force does not restrain those 100 million then they eventually will come against this small state.  Do you really believe Israel can stand alone?  More importantly, do you really believe that Israel would just allow itself to be over run?  There IS NO compromise that leaves Israel intact.  The PA came into being as it's predecessor in 1964 -calling for the liberation of a Palestine that still possessed (sort of) Gaza and the west bank.  So what land did Arafat want to liberate?  The answer is obvious...every square inch of the land Israel was formed on.  The world will burn before that happens, yet the world happily moves toward it's fate singing that Palestinian tune as they go.  It would almost be comical if it weren't sheer madness.

If Israel would rather burn everything than there lies the answer to the conflict.  It's like watching two neighbors or spouses argue daily. At first third parties intervene to understand the situation but after a while it's obvious that somebody should pack up their bags and leave before the situation becomes too violent.  If I were Israeli, born and raised there, I would pack my bags and leave to live somewhere else in peace.  The experiment of Israel has been a complete failure because the situation pits them against the rest of the world.  They need to understand that their nation was founded on violence and it's violence which continues its existence.  They came from Russia, Poland, France, the USA, etc... to accumulate such a population and they can also go back to their mother land.  It's really that easy.

Edited by acidhead, 27 December 2012 - 03:00 AM.

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

View Postacidhead, on 27 December 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

If Israel would rather burn everything than there lies the answer to the conflict.  It's like watching two neighbors or spouses argue daily. At first third parties intervene to understand the situation but after a while it's obvious that somebody should pack up their bags and leave before the situation becomes too violent.  If I were Israeli, born and raised there, I would pack my bags and leave to live somewhere else in peace.  The experiment of Israel has been a complete failure because the situation pits them against the rest of the world.  They need to understand that their nation was founded on violence and it's violence which continues its existence.  They came from Russia, Poland, France, the USA, etc... to accumulate such a population and they can also go back to their mother land.  It's really that easy.
:w00t:   you should send them the memo ;)

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#150    acidhead

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:30 AM

View Postand then, on 27 December 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

:w00t:   you should send them the memo ;)

so you agree.. Israel is the bully... thank you finally

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"




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