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How do you explain this?

evolution

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#1    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:46 AM

I've heard that when you look at the fossil record, the earliest life forms appear fully formed, apparently out of nowhere.

How do you explain this?

Also, how did creatures like ants or bees evolve?

The ant colony needs a queen to reproduce, and the queen needs the workers to gather food. One cannot survive without the other. So how did the queen evolve without the workers, or the workers without the queen?

Thank you.

P.S. I think I double posted by mistake, sorry about that.

Edited by Lrak, 27 July 2012 - 08:47 AM.


#2    Yes_Man

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:01 AM

I was reading about Ants on wiki the other day, Ants evolved from the family of wasps which the bees also come from. There are different ways in a colony works, some have more than one and some don't have queens.The Queen is just a female ant


#3    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:13 AM

Don't know about ants, then. Just a question I heard somewhere and wanted to know the answer.


#4    ZaraKitty

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:50 AM

The same way everything else evolved. Through trial and error (natural selection) over a long time. Ants are really no different on the Darwinism scale, their mountain was just as steep as ours.

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#5    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:53 AM

What about the first question?


#6    Rlyeh

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:05 AM

The earliest life forms were bacteria.
http://www.lifescien...est_life_earth/

Not sure what you mean by fully formed, how would something survive otherwise?


#7    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 27 July 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

The earliest life forms were bacteria.
http://www.lifescien...est_life_earth/

Not sure what you mean by fully formed, how would something survive otherwise?

More like vertebrates, and fishes that showed up on the fossil record. Or so they say.

I'm sure I heard and read of something like that.

Edited by Lrak, 27 July 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#8    sickpuppy

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:35 AM

Quote

I've heard that when you look at the fossil record, the earliest life forms appear fully formed, apparently out of nowhere.
iirc - this is the cambrian explosion?
some of us think the pre-cambrian era equates to terraforming..

Quote

How do you explain this?
none of us really can.. when we look back on this, sure, it can be equated to terraforming.. so the reasons for that?

hmm.. depending on your cosmology - it was either an accident, you know, life is random and has no purpose and all that ****..
..or
it was planned this way.

Quote

Also, how did creatures like ants or bees evolve?
again.. not 100% sold on anything.. burroughs [and others] talks about water creatures that came up on the dry earth (evolution, i guess?) ..i don't really know what to make of that whole debate, personally i see both evolution and creation side by side.. but that's just me.. anyway it seems the earth was very different in those times, the short of it is noah's deluge, the great flood, the water canopy dropping (whatever.. someone will come by and expand on that for us) - so what we have, is the earth becoming different (more land, less water kinda thing) ..this gives rise to land creatures (and here come the ants and bees) ...or so the theory goes

Quote

The ant colony needs a queen to reproduce, and the queen needs the workers to gather food. One cannot survive without the other. So how did the queen evolve without the workers, or the workers without the queen?
here is where it gets interesting..

New Nixon outlined it - the theory says ants evolved from wasps (and you've got your roaches and termites supposedly having a similar setup)

it's hard to explain, but you have these forerunner types, still highly individualised (your proto wasp, your proto roach) ..they both differentiated into ants and termites (respectively) so what you see here is an insects attempt at society and group living.

at this quasi-point, here is where we have our former individualised critters, starting to split up and delegate tasks (worker, soldier, queen) and you can still see some of this today in [so called] primitive ant species like the australian bulldog ant caste (which even retains a rudimentary eyesight of sorts) , uhh, i guess i should just leave that by saying, that particular ant species is still somewhat autonomous and individualised [hence why they call them primitive], there is a queen. and most of the ants that are flexible in this way will still duke it out chemically to see who's going to take the position of queen.
some ants are polyganeous, they'll have multiple queens, these ants make super colonies that literally extend for miles.

there is so much diversification in the ant world, if you do a little snooping at species like atta sexdens, teleuteromyrmex schneideri, ponerine... you'll start to see there is WAY more to this than meets the eye..

it's not often i take time to explain things in a post.. but i like ants..(so thanks) ..there's going to be a few grey areas in everything i just said, that's cool, someone will expand on it for us, but the gist here is solid, and i'm as eager as you are to learn even more :tu:

[edit]
something i'm still trying to wrap my head around.. apparently ants require their larvae to process the foodstuffs they collect (shared stomach, nature's so gross :P ) ...but if you're a starter kit, and have no larvae yet....? perhaps this is similar to the leafcutter queen, when she leaves the next takes a small sample of the former colonies fungus to start the growing cycle all over again.. (the ones who aren't growing mulch for food might take a stomach full of the processed food when they leave?)   ....fascinating stuff

Edited by unit, 27 July 2012 - 10:40 AM.

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#9    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:37 AM

View Postunit, on 27 July 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

iirc - this is the cambrian explosion?

Yeah, that's what it was.

Edited by Lrak, 27 July 2012 - 10:37 AM.


#10    sickpuppy

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:23 PM

ok good.. well that'll be $29.95 on your credit card for the extra rant :)

[edit]
shrugs/
something about babysteps for  life to express itself

Edited by unit, 27 July 2012 - 03:26 PM.

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Newton's Second Law: For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. They fart themselves around.

#11    HerNibs

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

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#12    Doug1o29

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostLrak, on 27 July 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

I've heard that when you look at the fossil record, the earliest life forms appear fully formed, apparently out of nowhere.

How do you explain this?
An incomplete fossil record.

Quote

Also, how did creatures like ants or bees evolve?

The ant colony needs a queen to reproduce, and the queen needs the workers to gather food. One cannot survive without the other. So how did the queen evolve without the workers, or the workers without the queen?
There are many solitary bee species.  The social ones evolved from solitary ones.

Note that workers only develop when fed a diet containing suppressors.  Without those, they grow up to become queens.  So reproduction is not an issue.  It is the default condition.
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#13    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 27 July 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

An incomplete fossil record.

So does that mean that there is a fossil for every single stage of evolution for any given species?

From the first vertebrate to a dinosaur, or humans?

I hope my understanding of evolution is correct.

It's that an organism changes to suit the environment it's in to become another organism better suited to that environment, or something like that?


#14    Rlyeh

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:54 PM

Fossilization requires special conditions;

http://www.fossilmus...ssilization.htm


#15    Mnemonix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 27 July 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Fossilization requires special conditions;

http://www.fossilmus...ssilization.htm

I'll keep that in mind.

So I suppose that if fossilization did occur for every species of living organism, you'd get a "complete fossil record" of every living organism in their transition from species to species?

And that the Cambrian Explosion is the result of an incomplete fossil record, due to fossilization not occurring?






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