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Father Gill's UnDebunkable Case?


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#121    psyche101

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

... so they'd have made a bit of a mistake setting their co-ordinates for 1959, (or, like Ford Prefect, had skimped a bit on their preliminary research), ... unless they knew something we don't, and that Dinosaurs can still be found in the jungles of PNG, or at least could in 1959. :o

LOL, no I did  not mean they were shooting for Dinosaurs and fell short, but it goes well with the pilot comment you made. I have to admit to a hearty chuckle over that one ;) Makes for a funny scene in one's mind that is for sure.

No, I intended Dinosaurs as one good reason as to why man would desire looking at the past. As mentioned, I would consider if this was future humans looking at people, then social studies seem a likely option. I think there are many reasons we would want to achieve such, if it is possible. But if a space faring wormhole is possible it does not explain the anomalies pointed out on the craft for any sort of Interstellar travel. It seems by all means and descriptions, designed for terrestrial use, as we know a vehicle. I know some say "maybe Aliens use viewing decks for something beyond our understanding"  and if that is the case, we have no hope of resolving any time of the tale, however, if we cannot apply what we do know, what is the point of even brining the case up if we are not allowed to apply what we do know? Is that not paramount to expecting all to sit on hands  ohh and ahh over the recollection and nod thoughtfully mumbling "aliens"?

But why I insist this is not ET is because of the description of men, the size of the craft, and the description. None of it points at a space vehicle, and we can only arrive at that conclusion by not thinking about it, and figuring Aliens are too smart for us to figure out. I think that is bunkum, and that we can do better.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#122    psyche101

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

All of those questions can very easily be answered by the suggestion that it (and similar small craft) are simply landers from larger craft, much in the manner of our Lunar Landers. The objection that is usually used, that any larger craft would be seen by the armies of Astronomers, and that no one has ever seen any Craft entering or leaving the solar System, etc, could very easily be answered by the suggestion that they might not be visually detectable, owing to the method that they use to get about, or that it deflects light or something similar, or that they in fact have been seen but they've been taken to be asteroids or planetoids, etc.

Well exactly that is an objection, Again that is introducing an fantasy craft to make ET work for Father Gills case isn't it? If one can tie in any anomaly in space with the time frame, we have a candidate, but we do not, we have nothing, we have well, if this happened.....

Which again, could also be answered by saying Father Gill was overindulging on some local kava and exaggerated the entire thing out of proportion and it was a helicopter passing overhead, dropping supplies. And his witness being good missionaries repeated and supported him. That explains rail, hovering, men and waving. But there is no support for the kava theory. Why is it less likely than aliens? Kava might be a great party workaround for a priest!

If we do not stick as closely as we can to the actual description, what is the point of attempting an explanation at all? What I am trying to do is find things that only fit in with Father Gill's description, and so far, it strikes me that he is describing  and used the words, Human beings, on what appears very much to be a vehicle engineered for terrestrial use. The anomaly is the described performance.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#123    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Well exactly that is an objection, Again that is introducing an fantasy craft to make ET work for Father Gills case isn't it?
... and introducing a time machine isn't....?
In fact, we could say that a landing craft coming down from a larger craft is more probable, since we know that that can be done (we've done it), and, even if we don't think that we have the technology yet for interstellar flight, we know that it is possible to make spacecraft  ... I don't know why you always keep insisting that a mother ship is fantasy; doesn't it seem a sensible way to go about deep-space travel, and use smaller craft to explore planets and short-distance travel? You seem to be insisting that it's fantasy just because we haven't seen one.

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#124    psyche101

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:05 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

... and introducing a time machine isn't....?
In fact, we could say that a landing craft coming down from a larger craft is more probable, since we know that that can be done (we've done it), and, even if we don't think that we have the technology yet for interstellar flight, we know that it is possible to make spacecraft  ... I don't know why you always keep insisting that a mother ship is fantasy; doesn't it seem a sensible way to go about deep-space travel, and use smaller craft to explore planets and short-distance travel? You seem to be insisting that it's fantasy just because we haven't seen one.

Because it does not exist. Like I said, if any anomaly had been reported, we could say, well, this is a candidate, but we do not. There is no reason to believe the thing ever went into space, and it has to do that to meet a mothership.

Yes, time travel is fantasy, but I admit that, it puts ET on the same realm though, and due to design most likely behind ET, and most do not wish to admit that. Personally I do feel there is some connection to other incidents like the 1896 Airship or Valless flying saucer powered by propellors.

Yes we have done this, but is there any reason to think this craft has done this? Is there any reason to think this is time traveler's? Maybe not, but what else can work with a terrestrial vehicle and men? Do you feel ET is a better explanation than time traveller's? Even though you need to invoke a support ship, to explain the anomalies on what you perceive to be a scout ship? I remain unsure as to why you think in the skies we are totally blind. That is not the case at all.

Edited by psyche101, 29 January 2013 - 10:06 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#125    quillius

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

View Post1963, on 24 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Hi Quillius,
UFOnauts walking around their ships rare?...well I haven't got much time to find the numbers of these reports just now Q,...so i'll link you to an excellent thread that has been compiled by a good friend of mine over at AU, if you are interested in browsing ....


http://www.alien-ufos.com/ufonauts/


Cheers buddy.

Hey 1963, forgot to thank you for the link, I agree it contains lots of valuable info.

Havent gone through it thoroughly yet, although I think this will take some time due to length, it does provide a nice central point for information.


#126    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Because it does not exist. Like I said, if any anomaly had been reported, we could say, well, this is a candidate, but we do not. There is no reason to believe the thing ever went into space, and it has to do that to meet a mothership.

Yes, time travel is fantasy, but I admit that, it puts ET on the same realm though, and due to design most likely behind ET, and most do not wish to admit that. Personally I do feel there is some connection to other incidents like the 1896 Airship or Valless flying saucer powered by propellors.

Yes we have done this, but is there any reason to think this craft has done this? Is there any reason to think this is time traveler's? Maybe not, but what else can work with a terrestrial vehicle and men? Do you feel ET is a better explanation than time traveller's? Even though you need to invoke a support ship, to explain the anomalies on what you perceive to be a scout ship? I remain unsure as to why you think in the skies we are totally blind. That is not the case at all.
So are we saying, if these were time travellers from 2400 AD* or whatever, this hovering platform thing would be the kind of thing they might fly around on then, (so it looks as though antigrav technology has been perfected, which is something to look forward to at least), or that that is the Time machine? That they may not need a De Lorean, but they'd still need some sort of craft? It wouldn't seem to be for environmental protection (which is another thought; would they need protection from viruses etc that they wouldn't have any immunity from, since they might have been eradicated hundreds of years before their time)? Or would they not be breathing the open air, and wear environmental protection suits? The tIme machine theory seems really to hinge upon this "viewing gallery" that makes the idea of a spacecraft so absurd; what if it wasn't in fact in the open air, but was protected by a kind of 'bubble'; or that people were only permitted out 'on deck', to open the exterior hatches, once they were at low speed & low altitude?
* or CE if you want to be PC

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#127    SwampgasBalloonBoy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

... Whereas, if they were carrying out a scientific study of flora & fauna, if (for instance) they were from another planet and they were cataloguing the flora & fauna of Earth, then Papua NG would be just the kind of place they'd be very interested in, wouldn't it ... ?

Indeed. That could very well explain why there were multiple ships that returned night after night. It's take time and effort to do this kind of thing. There's too much life in that jungle for just one visit. It also could explain why the ship appeared to have "deck and rail". Wouldn't it be useful to to collect sample when the ships hovering on top of tree? Those ships could be designed that way for just that type of task. :tu:


#128    SwampgasBalloonBoy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

No, we cannot get a better understanding, Hell, look at the thread title. ETH'ers have solved this case already. Even you keep saying "I do not say this is ET" but you are. You guys have re-interpreted Father Gills words, cherry picked the items you like, and re-written aspects to suit ET. The ET propaganda machines ET shoehorn.

Lets face it, unless I say, OK, this is proof of ET, then not a one of you will be happy will you? Be honest.



The world might be extinct, as you say it might be a world of time travellers, and it might be something else altogether. One does not negate the other, no matter how much you want it to. As such, that makes a level playing field. What is the assumption there? That all things are equal, and in an equal world ET does not explain Father Gills conundrum?

But following your scenario, that is pretty much exactly what I am proposing, waving at someone does not create a paradox, then what would be the point in returning through time? The most probable explanation seems to me to be study. And what was Father Gill doing there? Converting natives to Christianity. That strikes me as an example in history that one might want to observe, as well as read about. A change of culture.



? Sounds worth observing to me? I wonder what the natives thought, what were their initial reactions, how do some elders feel about the new generations taking an entirely new path, is what Father Gill is doing a crime in the future?


No one is expecting you to say, "this is proof of ET". No one can conclusively say this, can they? At least admit that ET is more plausible than the convoluted "human mastered wormhole and traveled to PNG on multiple occasions just to wave at locals" scenario. Everything else being equal, including the "quarantine" problem that you so worry about(yes, there could be many viruses that exist in the future that people in the past are not immune to), every single visit could change the course of human history.

The bold part confused the hell out of me. Here you are introducing more assumptions on top of your already convoluted assumptions to try and justify your complex explanation. You mean to tell me that somehow all information on human history was wipe out so they have to travel back in time to relearn? Isn't there a better way to understand human psychology than have to travel back in time on multiple occasions? How can F Gill do a crime in the future? this is ridiculous. I think they would be more interest in Hitler if they like to observe crime.



View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Yes, it seems to have as much logic as ET being Father Gills sighting. Occam's Razor explains Crop Circles. Bit of a joke, wouldn't you say? One of the worst misuses of the phrase that I, and most of the people in that thread, have ever seen. Some might have sen worse I guess.

And I agree with the poster in that thread who said that most people who invoke it, do not understand it, but LS is a bit of a guru I think.

How am I breaking Occams razor, Is that what you think you lot are doing by invoking ET? Honestly? I do not see it like that at all, I think it is lazy to simply ascribe the unknown to a higher power. I think Occam  too would be scratching his head over a 35 foot craft with viewing decks that crosses Interstellar distances.

I think Occam would be scratching his head over how someone keep introducing more and more assumptions and complexities to try and explain away something less complex. For your explanation to work, men somehow have to create wormhole at will, they can master time travel but not interstellar travel because the crafts "just does not look like an interstellar craft", solve the time paradox. All these effort in order to study human behavior that they could easily get since they are human afterall.



View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

It is lazy to assume it might be something we do not know about, so it's function cannot be guessed at, no matter the appearance, and use that to qualify ET as an answer. That to me is no better than saying Zeus threw lightning bolts and Thor used a hammer to make Thunder. Same thing exactly.

What I am claiming is my understanding of a structure, that is applying thought to what we have as opposed to throwing my arms in the air and running in circles saying ET is here, proof! All I find is that Father Gills case shows the arrogance of the believer side, and what happens should you challenge a case they consider sacred. Seen it before when I have debated Roswell. People think they have solid gold, but ask them to show you where ET lies in it all, and assumption is left for dead. Guessing, imagination and speculation take the front row. Assumption is a leap forward by comparison.

GIve me another reason to have a railed platform that men can walk upon. You guys are quick to try and insist my interpretation is wrong but what have you got? It's an ET wonder. I mean fair go mate, you actually believe that a deck is likely to have some function that is helpful to space travel? And what a gigantic waste of space! Have you ever engineered anything? And I do not mean that in a derogatory sense, if you have engineered something you musty realise that things are built to function. If we cannot apply what we know to this, then whart is the point in discussing it al all? Why not just leave it in the UFO archive and pull it out once a year and pat yourselves on the back?

And why the opposition to calling what appears to be a viewing deck as a viewing deck? It's because it takes ET out of the picture isn't it? Why else are you so upset about a possible suggestion? Seriously, you guy are not even honest to yourselves! It is plain as the nose on your face that the opposition to the description of viewing deck is because that makes ET unlikely. Or do you claim the guy who put ejector seats in helicopters is an alien craft designer? That might work! It fits better than the original ohhing and ahhing over this case as ET proof.

No one is saying that a viewing deck somehow have some function that is helpful to space travel. This are your words! But a viewing deck is useful if they wanted a tour of earth and its inhabitants. A platform or rail would be useful in gathering sample on top of tree if they are on a scientific mission. Yes, thing are build to function. Not all ships have viewing deck or rail. They designed this for the possible reason listed before. You don't take a tank on a safari do you? you would want a more open vehicle for better view.



View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I notice you ignore every question I ask you, yet you still have much to protest about! If you had the guts to answer my questions, I doubt we would still be having this conversation, here are the questions again, tell me your assumptions.
  • What propulsion system can traverse light years yet carry enough fuel to comfortably fot in a 35 foot craft?
  • How do astronauts survive a distance between planets in a 35 foot craft?
  • How does a 35 foot craft hold enough supplies for an interstellar journey for craft and crew? Is it a TARDIS?
  • What conceivable notion is there for viewing decks on an interstellar craft, and what an immense waste of space for something so compact that does so much!
Are you saying these questions are unreasonable, and somehow assumptions? If you feel that is the case, please extrapolate, they are questions that ask how the heck is this a craft that can cross space. But I can see why that makes you uncomfortable, it really puts ET into question as an answer to Father Gill's "undebunkable" case.

Do you really want to go this route? If I can answer all these questions then I would be the smartest human being of all time. If you can tell me what kind of machine could create wormhole, what system determine the exact location and time of their destination. How do they harness the energy equivalent of a sun to make such wormhole. If you can tell me all these, you would be the smartest human being of all time too. While you're at it, maybe you could tell me why human found viewing deck to be useful but ET doesn't. Do human know something ET don't?



View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Well hell yeah, and if you have a problem with me putting science before imagination, then the problem really is not mine is it?

Yes, I feel the Big Bang theory is the best explanation to date, Hoyle's hypotheses were tested, and were not convincing. They did outline some anomalies, I grant, however that does not make it a fore runner, when the rest of his hypothesis was not as good as the Big Bang, which he coined in an attempt to make fun of it, ironic that. What do you propose?
Do you understand inflation at all, because it would not seem so from your comments. During the period of inflation, the Universe had different states. Not everything was "as is" at inflation was it, I mean you and I did not exist, we are conscious matter, and we do not last forever, but what makes us up does. The Universe was smaller than 35 foot across, but it was not usable, not a resource, it was an action, something in progress. It is not like separating apace time, if that is what you are proposing, space time are intimately connected, inflation was a process that allowed matter to expand, and interact. Pop 1 stars were not here at the start of the Universe, they had to evolve, and life from them. Science builds on science, it is a progression of knowledge. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that. If you throw that away, you are back to square one.
And no, I do not think it is a piece of cake. With some luck, Higgs will explain inflation, not aliens. And we are on that path right now. LOL, inflation aliens! What sort of matter would that be now?

Why do you take everything so literally? "you and I did not exist", "inflation aliens"<-----seriously?

Mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. What I am assuming is that the total mass and energy of the universe that we observe now was there from the beginning. At one time, the total mass and energy was compacted to an "infinite" level.
The matter that we are made up was there from the beginning, obviously in different form. If such energy and mass can be compacted to an "infinite" level, then would it be possible for enough energy to use for space travel be compacted into a 35 ft craft? or is this impossible. I am not talking about fitting the whole universe into 35 ft wide, just enough energy for interstellar travel. I would assume this energy to be a grain of sand compared to the total energy of the universe.

LOL, inflation aliens? There's need for that! If you can fit 5 human into a sedan, I am sure the aliens can manage with a 35 ft craft. unless you're expecting the alien to be as big as an elephant?


#129    bison

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:05 AM

Traversable wormholes have been given serious thought by reputable scientists,  and are quite in line with current scientific theory. The warp in space created by a rotating (Kerr) black hole, not a static (Swarzchild) black hole, is apparently comparable to that which would be created by an artificial space warp intended to be used for stellar travel.
The energy needed for such a device has already, in principle, been vastly reduced by Dr. White's recent work on improvements in the design proposed by Alcubierre. He believes it may be reduced still more.


#130    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So are we saying, if these were time travellers from 2400 AD* or whatever, this hovering platform thing would be the kind of thing they might fly around on then, (so it looks as though antigrav technology has been perfected, which is something to look forward to at least), or that that is the Time machine?

Well, not anti grav, the hillier platform shows people want to do things similar to this, and have tried, perhaps a stabilised version or similar. I would think yes it would be a time machine under such an ideal because it has a compartment for men to go inside, and he rest of the craft appears to be designed for observation. Only considering anti grav is a bit limiting isn't it? I thought you were the imaginative type?


Posted Image


Science //
Last year, the Austrian engineering firm IAT21 set out to construct a flying machine that floated like a hummingbird, traveled as fast as a jet, was as quiet as a hot-air balloon, and was simple enough that a car mechanic could repair it. The company's working prototype, called D-Dalus, is roughly one and a half by one square metre and can lift about 45 kilos. But the size and lift are not what's most impressive. A flying machine with no airfoil, rotor or jet propulsion can travel where most cannot: in very tight spaces and through terrible weather.


ROTOR ASSEMBLIES

The craft's four rotors spin at 2,200 rpm, and six blades attached to carbon-fiber disks create directional thrust. The blades act as mini airfoils, their angle of attack constantly shifting in relation to rotation. For vertical lift, a blade's leading edge rises away from the centre of the disk at the top of its rotation and toward the centre of the disk at the bottom [pictured], creating a pressure differential.
FRICTIONLESS BEARINGS

Existing bearings were unable to withstand 1,000 Gs of force between the carbon-fibre disks and their blades and still deliver some degree of maneuverability. Engineers at IAT21 developed their own bearings, shaped like metal barrels, that hold up to the force better than spheres (think: arches) but can still roll enough for the blades to move.




Posted Image


LINK

LINK

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

That they may not need a De Lorean, but they'd still need some sort of craft?

If they have to travel through a wormhole, I would think very much so.

View PostLord Vetinari, on 29 January 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

It wouldn't seem to be for environmental protection (which is another thought; would they need protection from viruses etc that they wouldn't have any immunity from, since they might have been eradicated hundreds of years before their time)? Or would they not be breathing the open air, and wear environmental protection suits? The tIme machine theory seems really to hinge upon this "viewing gallery" that makes the idea of a spacecraft so absurd; what if it wasn't in fact in the open air, but was protected by a kind of 'bubble'; or that people were only permitted out 'on deck', to open the exterior hatches, once they were at low speed & low altitude?
* or CE if you want to be PC


Maybe, but we are not exactly in the dark ages anymore. We have decent records. Anything from this time frame should not only have good record, but steps taken to eradicate it, so future humans I would think would have a large head-start on an Alien.

You guys keep inventing things to insist this is a spacecraft, I think we should try to stick as closely to Father Gills words as is possible. What he describes appears to be an observational vehicle with men on it. That is not an ET description. As I keep saying, the time machine is my first thought at what would humans be doing on a floating platform that very much appears to be an observational vehicle. If you have other suggestions, I would love to hear them, but nobody does. You guys keep making stuff up to try and make ET fit because we have a strange description of craft performance and nothing else. And you guys are not at all considering Father Gill and his recollection when you do so.
Instead of making stuff up, how about trying to find where ET fits in the actual description, and not extended versions of it?

Edited by psyche101, 30 January 2013 - 01:11 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#131    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Indeed. That could very well explain why there were multiple ships that returned night after night. It's take time and effort to do this kind of thing. There's too much life in that jungle for just one visit. It also could explain why the ship appeared to have "deck and rail". Wouldn't it be useful to to collect sample when the ships hovering on top of tree? Those ships could be designed that way for just that type of task. :tu:

How do you collect sample when you do not land?

No report has a craft landing.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#132    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:23 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

No one is expecting you to say, "this is proof of ET". No one can conclusively say this, can they? At least admit that ET is more plausible than the convoluted "human mastered wormhole and traveled to PNG on multiple occasions just to wave at locals" scenario. Everything else being equal, including the "quarantine" problem that you so worry about(yes, there could be many viruses that exist in the future that people in the past are not immune to), every single visit could change the course of human history.

Dead set you could have fooled me. The way you keep making stuff up to shoehorn ET in here I cannot fathom you even considering an alternative.

No, ET is not more plausible, just because you have read many woo woo sites that blather on about FTL travel, you feel comfortable with that which you have read often, time travel is not so it is little wonder that you insist this must be ET, yet you cannot give me one single aspect of Father Gill's description that can only be ET, and to have ET as a candidate, that is necessary.

I mentioned quarantine once, and it is a bugbear for me with all claimed ET contact, not just this case. It is pure fantasy to suggest this has been overcome because "Aliens are advanced". They truly are a god to some. Nothing is beyond their powers. Reality is, no matter what Aliens are and where, they live by the same rules we do. Physics are a constant across the Universe.

No, I will not admit that ET is the best explanation for what seems to be an observational vehicle built for terrestrial viewing with human beings described as being on it. Because that would be a lie. And if we read exactly what Father Gill left us, we have no more of a description than that. It is slightly embarrassing  in fact that people take such a straightforward statements and start inventing Motherships to take in the observed craft, and assume that because Father Gill did not see legs, they could be 20 foot long. None of that is in the original description, and all I have outlined is the description and asked for other possibilities for a what very much appears to be a terrestrial observanional vehicle with human beings on it. I am more than open to any explanation that can fit this scenari, as offered by Father Gill - delegation from Skunworks maybe? But that is why I think you guys get more wrong with every post. You do not consider any possibility other than ET, and at even the suggestion of an alternative will fight tooth and nail, and invent things left right and centre to make ET fit.

You think it is ET because the craft hovered, and took of quickly right? And because you cannot tie in a recognised vehicle to fit the description as given by Father Gill right?

If that is ET, we need at least a mother ship. Does the idea, not even hypothesis, of time travel require any items additional to what Father Gill has said? I think you are all grabbing at straws and saying our infant steps into this realm of science prove (mind you prove not indicate) that wormholes for space travel are more likely than wormholes for time travel, I mean really? Have a look at it. I have a wild guess, no more wild than ET, but to look at my guess, one does not have to add to Father Gills recollection. You are trying to overshadow this with our earliest understanding of such hypotheses. To qualify ET, you need to add components to Father Gill's description. That I see as an important difference. Time travel can work with the description "as is". And any other option that fits Father Gills recollection is something I would welcome.

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

The bold part confused the hell out of me. Here you are introducing more assumptions on top of your already convoluted assumptions to try and justify your complex explanation. You mean to tell me that somehow all information on human history was wipe out so they have to travel back in time to relearn? Isn't there a better way to understand human psychology than have to travel back in time on multiple occasions? How can F Gill do a crime in the future? this is ridiculous. I think they would be more interest in Hitler if they like to observe crime.

Damn you are confused easily! Are you sure you are not being deliberately obtuse?

Your preferences should indicate what people would want to look at? If you have a time machine, what is the restriction? Are you suggesting time travel can only ever be achieved once by a species if possible at all? As I said, this is a missionary, changing the culture of individual clans forever. Traditional beliefs being eradicated and replaced with Christianity. I see absolutely no reason why this would not be of great interest to witness to a social study.

I did not say Father Gill did a crime in the future, and perhaps that is the reason for your confusion, maybe you are not reading  the posts through, but skimming across and picking up what you want, which would explain a long list of unanswered questions, when I have had the courtesy to answer each and every one of yours. For your benefit, what I said was "could what Father Gill is doing (in his mission, changing cultures  and diverting traditional belief) be considered a crime at some point in the future?" Personally I would like to see Ancient Alien claim makers go to court to prove their claims or be charged with vandalism now. Hell for all you know, I become a world power in 50 years and outlaw Ancient Alien claims and invent a time machine. No more far fetched than an alien. Unless you have come up with one aspect of Father Gill's recollection that can only be alien?

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I think Occam would be scratching his head over how someone keep introducing more and more assumptions and complexities to try and explain away something less complex. For your explanation to work, men somehow have to create wormhole at will, they can master time travel but not interstellar travel because the crafts "just does not look like an interstellar craft", solve the time paradox. All these effort in order to study human behavior that they could easily get since they are human afterall.

You just do not get it do you.

It is not an explanation  it is a filler, a quick fix, the first thing that came into my head when considering what men might be doing on a vehicle that appears to be built for terrestrial observation, with human beings on it that has exceptional performance capabilities described  In short, taking Father Gill's words at face value, and trying to fing square pegs to put in square holes. ET is a round peg.

What time paradox? None exist in Father Gills description, not being rude, but do you understand temporal paradoxes, and how many their are? If we do have a paradox here, is it the Grandfather paradox, or the rolling film paradox? If it is the latter, what does that affect?

Like I say, it is not more, if you actually take Father Gills description at what it is. Just the words. Time travel does not need a Mothership that nobody in existence can confirm. If not for the apparent terrestrial use, human beings would still be a question, however nothing need be added for time travel. Space travel needs assistance. Any explanation that can say why human beings on a vehicle that seems built for terrestrial use, and never went into space, will do for starters. That is what I get out of Father Gils description. That is all that should factor.

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

No one is saying that a viewing deck somehow have some function that is helpful to space travel. This are your words! But a viewing deck is useful if they wanted a tour of earth and its inhabitants. A platform or rail would be useful in gathering sample on top of tree if they are on a scientific mission. Yes, thing are build to function. Not all ships have viewing deck or rail. They designed this for the possible reason listed before. You don't take a tank on a safari do you? you would want a more open vehicle for better view.

Yes they are my words, and formed into a question! Gracious man! The craft has a viewing deck, basic engineering question, valid, and unanswered. Do you understand the size of space at all? I really recommend that you have a look at "The Elegant Universe" narrated by Brian Greene. I think it would clear up many things that you seem to be missing with regards to your environment.

A 35 foot craft with a viewing deck, and human beings on it it simply not ET! That is not something that can cross space according to physics! There is not enough room for occupants to spend so long in, no room for fuel, and no room for motors to generate propulsion to cross interstellar distances. The only way to overcome these hurdles is to make stuff up and pretend magical physics exist in some fantasy place.

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Do you really want to go this route? If I can answer all these questions then I would be the smartest human being of all time. If you can tell me what kind of machine could create wormhole, what system determine the exact location and time of their destination. How do they harness the energy equivalent of a sun to make such wormhole. If you can tell me all these, you would be the smartest human being of all time too. While you're at it, maybe you could tell me why human found viewing deck to be useful but ET doesn't. Do human know something ET don't?

Yes of course I want to go this route, do you think I posted the questions for decoration? Twice?

These are the basic physics hurdles this craft meets when claimed to be an Interstellar craft. It is that simple. You do not have to be a genius, you just need to tell  my theory, heck, and a hypothesis will more than suffice, that allows those factors to be overcome, and not just "Aliens can do anything".

Humans may well know things that ET's do not, and quite possibly ones that visit, Heck, for a start we know more about our planet! We live here!

ET does not have to be advanced, I am not sure why people insist this must always be the case. It's 50/50. ET could well be at exactly the same level of development as us, or behind, or in front. No scenario is favoured when we are considering what might be literally thousands of species we may someday contact.

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Why do you take everything so literally? "you and I did not exist", "inflation aliens"<-----seriously?

You hypocrite! You chastised me for saying I ate the last Alien in another thread. You took that seriously! And I remain amazed as to how.

What indicates any part of your post is not serious? You seem quite hot under the collar that you cannot get me to say ET is a good candidate here. And it will remain that way unless you can tell me what in Father Gills description is, and can only be ET.

That is what you are proposing was it not? That because the Universe underwent inflation, that aliens reversed this effect  to create a 35 foot Interstellar manned ship?

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. What I am assuming is that the total mass and energy of the universe that we observe now was there from the beginning. At one time, the total mass and energy was compacted to an "infinite" level.
The matter that we are made up was there from the beginning, obviously in different form. If such energy and mass can be compacted to an "infinite" level, then would it be possible for enough energy to use for space travel be compacted into a 35 ft craft? or is this impossible. I am not talking about fitting the whole universe into 35 ft wide, just enough energy for interstellar travel. I would assume this energy to be a grain of sand compared to the total energy of the universe.

No? Matter cannot be created? I think Higgs Bosun might disagree with you on that one. To a point you are correct, as Higgs transforms energy into matter, and I agree that energy is neither created not destroyed, but it can be converted into matter.
What happens when matter and anti matter meet? Annihilation. That is destruction of matter, and we have done it.

The total Universe is not inside a ship, so it's totality does not factor from what I can see. But there is a reason that Models such as the Sun and Jupiter are used on calculations concerning hypotheses regard warp travel. If that could be managed into a 35 foot craft, I imagine the world would not have energy problems any longer. We have immediate need for such, space travel would be down the line for us. If we could do this, we would not be burning oil. Only a black hole I think might be able to manage such power in such a small space? However, the very nature of the black hole would crumple a 35 foot craft as well and absorb it, so it is a catch 22.

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

LOL, inflation aliens? There's need for that! If you can fit 5 human into a sedan, I am sure the aliens can manage with a 35 ft craft. unless you're expecting the alien to be as big as an elephant?

Not for interstellar journeys, and not for an conceivable terrestrial alien. The closest trip is till years, even at any workable percentage of c. It is too small to hold food for such a journey, and it is too small for proper exercise to stop muscle atrophication. Try spending a weekend in a 3 man tent with two other men, and do not leave it. Then imagine decades of that. It is not a matter of squishing beings in like sardines, they need to move, eat, drink and take a dump. Or you will end up with a vehicle full of dead astronauts at your destination.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#133    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:27 AM

View Postbison, on 30 January 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Traversable wormholes have been given serious thought by reputable scientists,  and are quite in line with current scientific theory. The warp in space created by a rotating (Kerr) black hole, not a static (Swarzchild) black hole, is apparently comparable to that which would be created by an artificial space warp intended to be used for stellar travel.

Let me know when we achieve on. It's all theoretical, and yes, serious thought. Might I ask how serious thought of wormholes makes Father Gills description specifically one that only ET can answer? Are you saying our infant steps into this area of science somehow determine that Father Gill's description actually has a component that can only be ET?

View Postbison, on 30 January 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

The energy needed for such a device has already, in principle, been vastly reduced by Dr. White's recent work on improvements in the design proposed by Alcubierre. He believes it may be reduced still more.

No, it has not, the claim has been made, and that is all. Nothing has been forthcoming to date for the relatively new claim. I seem to remember something about Neutrinos being faster than light too. That did not seem to work out so well for the claimants.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#134    SwampgasBalloonBoy

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:57 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 30 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

How do you collect sample when you do not land?

No report has a craft landing.

Since there are no report of landing nor of any landing gears, it is impossible for such crafts to land :D . Let me try a possible explanation here.....The aliens, having been to earth many time, ran into a group of time travelling human from da future. The aliens were amazed at the wormhole creating machine of da human. Da Human shared the technology with da aliens. So the aliens crafts are equipped with a mini wormhole machine. Every time they wanted to get to da ground, they goes through da mini wormhole.


#135    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:20 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 30 January 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Since there are no report of landing nor of any landing gears, it is impossible for such crafts to land :D . Let me try a possible explanation here.....The aliens, having been to earth many time, ran into a group of time travelling human from da future. The aliens were amazed at the wormhole creating machine of da human. Da Human shared the technology with da aliens. So the aliens crafts are equipped with a mini wormhole machine. Every time they wanted to get to da ground, they goes through da mini wormhole.

Quote

Underneath it had four legs in pairs pointing diagonally downwards these appeared to be fixed, not retractable, and looked the same on the two nights - rather like tripods.


Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.





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