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EU 'makes UK more valuable to US


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#31    stevewinn

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

View PostRender, on 11 January 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Eum, the dutch or the french didn't have referendums to leave Europe....where the hell are you getting this?? Do you understand the nature of referendums?
They voted on treaties and enlargement of the EU ... not to leave it, quite the opposite. France was one of the founding members lol...do you re-read your posts before you post them ? You should.

Get your facts straight if you're gonna get all emotional about it.


View PostExpandMyMind, on 11 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

What referendums did they say no to? Joining?

And for the record, when you state "over half of the people of europe would vote to leave the EU if given the vote", then directly move on to the aforementioned quote from my previous post, then it looks like the two are directly related; it looks like you were referring to referendums to leave the EU.

My reply was to Render - in reply to especially the bold highlighted above in the first quote. first and foremost he as incorrectly quoted me. for the fourth time, i did not say the referendums were on leaving the EU. go back and read my post. He says i should get my facts right, he hasn't even quoted me right. and seems to be replying to the voices in his head. followed by am getting emotional. - it is he who is getting emotional spending twenty minutes copy and pasting. thinking hes making a point, but i'll keep my powder dry.

As for you Expand. its not my fault you have interpreted it wrong. i thought the space left in between would be sufficient. just like now, - i can see were the mistake can be made, but then again, to anyone whose been following the European Union debates would instantly know, without interpretation what the following refers to - The French said No, the Dutch Said NO and the Irish Said NO. - even now instantly you should realise what it refers to? no?

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#32    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?


#33    questionmark

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:28 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 11 January 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?

The European constitution, and both in France and Holland it was less about the constitution (that hardly anybody knew at the time, and still is not known by the majority) but about local politics. Both wanted to infringe a loss to their government, and I wager that the result would have been the same if anybody would have to vote whether they want free 50 Euros and the government was in favor.

At the end they did all Europeans a disfavor as the rights contained in the constitution were not enacted but later, in the treaty of Lisbon, all obligations.

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#34    smurf0852

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:44 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 10 January 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

So you have already given an unelected foreign government control over some of your laws, now you want to listen to a president of another country over the people of the UK?
us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.
england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.


#35    stevewinn

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 11 January 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?

as Q, as already explained, but to add more meat to the bone, the vote as on the EU constitution, - but this threw a spanner in the works. because of the changes in the EU constitution it would require the major countries to go to their people in a referendum vote. to accept it, but in the EU they dont like referendums especially if they know they are going to loose them. So what happened to get around any legalities they would change the EU constitution and call it the Lisbon treaty. yet in reality the Lisbon Treaty is the EU constitution. they done this so they wouldn't have to go to a vote knowing full well most of the members  would strike it down by voting No.  - we had French President SarKozy say their is no point having a referendum, because the people would Vote NO. so they didn't ask them and ratified it anyway. because they didn't want a repeat of last time when they voted No.  the Dutch also voted NO. then out of the 27 Member countries of the European Union only ONE, thats right ONE country held a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. and yet this on a issue that directly affects the lives and future lives of every single person in the EU. - When the Irish held the vote, they Voted NO. within 24 hours the EU had decided they'd have to vote again. - This is when the dirt comes out, how dare a such a country such as Ireland who had benefited more than most from EU membership vote NO. the EU propaganda machine flew into action they spent 10 to one more money on advertising. for a YES vote. they said if Ireland voted No. they'd face economic meltdown, they said they'd lose jobs. the usual stuff. the scare tactics. and one MEP even called the Irish Stupid. he stated they were to thick to understand the treaty issues. i guess he was right because they held a second vote and the Irish Voted YES.

The worrying part is the politicians knew if they'd asked the people in a referendum they'd have Voted NO, - this is what i find truly alarming and it just shows how people sleepwalk into situations. We had Danny Cohn Bendit German MEP in the European parliament say at the time if anyone votes no against the constitution they are mentally ill. we had Martin Schulz MEP say if anyone votes NO they are Nazis. does this sound like people who believe in democracy? does any of this process sound like a democracy? And before anyone says the two are different. listen to the words of the Author of the EU Constitution when he said. the Lisbon Treaty is the EU constitution.

well this has all happened, its all been passed and we have seen it with our own eyes, were living through it -  the Lisbon Treaty was the EU constitution in all but name. truly is one for the history books.  :td:

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#36    stevewinn

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

View Postsmurf0852, on 12 January 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.
england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.

But who makes the rules of the land who governs the country? not the Queen, or the Lords. if you dont like the Government Vote them out at the next election.

i tell you what at the next European electionn, vote out the EU commissioners, vote out our EU President Mr Van Rompuy. Oh thats right you cannot remove them from office and secondly you didnt even vote for them in the first place. yet these people are having a direct effect on our every day lives. unelected the lot of them. democracy EU style.

OUR VERY OWN UNELECTED EU PRESIDENT - Failed politician from the ecomomic power house known the world over as Belgium. Belgium i hear you say. YES Belgium. another non country who for the best part of the last few years hasn't even had a government. MR VAN Rompuy a face to fill you with confidence, this man is paid a salary even more than the US President. what a gravy train Mr Van Rompuy as walked upon.



Edited by stevewinn, 12 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

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#37    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:45 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 12 January 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.
england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.

I think it's that 'independent thought' that you are actually arguing against & trying to deny the public. For a would be communist you're not very keen to let the proletariat decide their own future are you, oh but then again, we are all ****fits.
.......actually on second thoughts you wear your communist credentials well, afterall letting the people decide their own future would be tantamount to living in a democracy, & we can't allow that can we comrades.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 12 January 2013 - 02:18 PM.

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#38    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

The US is only interested in US interests.  It isn't interested in British interests.  The only reason why the US wants Britain to stay in the EU is because doing so would be good for US interests.  The US doesn't care about whether or not it will be good for Britain.  It just wants Britain to stay in the EU for US interests, not British interests.  Do you really think that the Americans are thinking: "We care about Britain and the British people.  We think being in the EU is good for Britain and we don't want them to suffer by leaving the EU.  We want them to stay because we care about them."  Do they heck.  The only reason why they want Britain in the EU is because it is good for AMERICAN interests, not British ones.

I did laugh at what the Americans said.  Philip Gordon, a senior official in the US State Department, said: "Referendums have often turned countries inwards", in response to the likelihood that the British are to be given a vote on their membership of the EUSSR.  I laughed because it is usually the Americans which are inward-looking and Britain is traditionally outward-looking, as shown again by Britain's desire to leave the very much inward-looking EU and join the global community again.

I don't normally agree with former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, but I agreed with him on last night's episode of Question Time when he said exactly the same as what I wrote in the above paragraph.  In the early Seventies Prescott actually led a campaign to try and stop Britain entering the Common Market.

So the British Government should ignore the US (and the Germans and the Irish, too, who are also out for just their own interests and not Britain's).  The British government should, however, listen to the British people, most of whom want a referendum and most of whom now wish to leave the EU.

The PM is actually making a speech on this issue on Tuesday 22nd January and it is expected that he will, indeed, announce that the British people are to get the EU in/out referendum that we want, a referendum in which it is almost certain the British will will vote to leave the EU.

Perhaps the PM is recognising that the British people need to be allowed to decide whether or not they want to be in the EU as we haven't been allowed to make this decision since way back in 1975 when many of those who voted are now dead and many millions who are now eligible to vote weren't even born.  Or maybe, perhaps, he knows that UKIP are presenting a real threat to his party and he known that, should no EU referendum be forthcoming by 2015, he and his party will be in trouble and UKIP will take many votes off them.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 12 January 2013 - 03:28 PM.


#39    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 10 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

The deluded Euro skeptics may not think their influence will diminish outside of the EU, but those of a more sane disposition know better.

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Britain will be a much more powerful nation outside the EU as an independent nation which runs its own affairs like most countries do than it will be inside the EU when it will be just one "Member State" amongst many having to follow whatever bizarre and pointless rules Brussels makes us follow and when it has economic growth held back by the stranglehold of Brussels.

In fact, the reason why the Americans, Irish and Germans are getting themselves in a state of panic over the prospect of Britain leaving the EU is precisely because Britain is an influential, powerful nation.  They will not work themselves up in such a state were it Denmark or Portugal threatening to leave the EU.

At the end of the day Britain is the world's fifth largest economy and has the only properly-functioning military in the Western World other than the United States. Britain is more than big enough to stand on its own two feet and the only people who think otherwise are the raving, mouth-frothing, swivel-eyed Europhile loonies who think the EU is some sort of great Nirvana in which every country must be a part of should they wish to acquire political and economic greatness and every country outside the EU (around 87% of the world's nations) are dark, medieval countries where dragons and minotaurs roam but, thankfully, these raving, mouth-frothing, swivel-eyed Europhile loonies are very much in the minority not only in Britain but across Europe.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 12 January 2013 - 03:22 PM.


#40    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 10 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

They also described the EU for what it is - the largest economy in the world.

Br Cornelius

Well, they are wrong.  The Commonwealth's economy has just overtaken the EU.

So will the economies of the USA and China in the not-too-distant future.

Get it into your head that Europe as an economic power is finished.


#41    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

The commonwealth isn't a trading block and offers no special advantages to the UK, all trading deals have to be negotiated on a country by country basis - it is in no way comparable to the EU.
You seem to think that you will be returning to the prosperity of Empire days, without realising that the only reason why the UK was as prosperous as it was was because it exploited its colonial subject nations with preferential trade deals and outright theft. You aint going back to that, you would go back to been a marginal trading nation with sever debt issues and a declining industrial base - in a world where making money from banking is going to be massively constrained in the future.

Its quite interesting to note that the great (?) iron lady was a firm believer in a strong trading block called the EU and that she thought the place for Britain was firmly at its center. the crazies seem to have taken over her party.

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#42    AsteroidX

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

How old is the EU ? Rally asking here.


#43    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostTheLastLazyGun, on 12 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Well, they are wrong.  The Commonwealth's economy has just overtaken the EU.

So will the economies of the USA and China in the not-too-distant future.

Get it into your head that Europe as an economic power is finished.

The EU is not any more in decline or facing any more economic crisis than any of those other trading blocks you point to. China has massive readjustments to make to an overheated economy. The USA is still running on credit junky status without any meaningful industrial growth (its still shrinking).

Wishful thinking will not make your delusion true.

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#44    questionmark

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 12 January 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

How old is the EU ? Rally asking here.

Which one? The oldest version dates from 1957. With an elected parliament it dates from 1979.

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#45    AsteroidX

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:38 PM

Thanks questionmark. I was believing the EU was young and wanted to be sure I was accurate enough.

Based on the age of the EU I wouldnt be surprised if it didnt dissolve altogether eventually considering the diverse nationalities and political systems involved. I just dont get how the US became part of the EU conversation as we have enough problems at home and should be more concerned about our own borders and why they are so strict and why NAFTA failed America.





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