Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Where do athiests think we came from?


  • Please log in to reply
461 replies to this topic

#421    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,190 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Photons only exist when they're being measured (last page the Dr Quantum Vid)
This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.
In wave particle duality, photons behave as particles or waves. They are called photons in either case. You've been corrected on this before.

Edited by Rlyeh, 08 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.


#422    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.

Too funny :P

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#423    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.
In wave particle duality, photons behave as particles or waves. They are called photons in either case. You've been corrected on this before.

You've been corrected on this before.

A wavefunction is not a particle. These mistakes about science happen when you dont progress beyond high school.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 08 December 2012 - 04:44 PM.


#424    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,190 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

You've been corrected on this before.

A wavefunction is not a particle. These mistakes about science happen when you dont progress beyond high school.
You're a fricking genius. THE WAVE IS NOT THE WAVEFUNCTION.

Clueless as ever.
http://en.wikipedia....article_duality


#425    FlyingAngel

FlyingAngel

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined:29 Jul 2009
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

Looking at the sky, watching the stars, then wondering what has given you this intelligence, an intelligence which let you wondering about the existence of the universe that none other animal can. Then you know the answer doesn't even matter. It is it, a power force that can hide its own existence, casting a doubt to keep the balance between faith and science.
It is telling us to look at the future, the past doesn't matter.


#426    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,509 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 08 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:



And the moon isn't real unless I look at it. *sigh* Forget it.
He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.

Think of it as way for the universe to conserve storge space. Think of doom. You only see what you are looking at. It dosnt mean that the rest of the map isn't there just not constructed yet only programmed for, if the computer constructed every piece of the map at one time it would very quickly use a tremendous amount of space. Instead... Each part of the map carries the instruction for the next part based on what you are  looking at / measuring.

I know it's counter intuitive, but this is exactly how the quantum world behaves.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#427    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,509 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

You're a fricking genius. THE WAVE IS NOT THE WAVEFUNCTION.

Clueless as ever.
http://en.wikipedia....article_duality
There is no wave.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#428    scowl

scowl

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,111 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:34 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

My definition of God is of the non-duality variety not the Christain one.

For those keeping score, we aren't allowed to talk about objects like stones because they only exist in our minds.

However Mr. Right Wing is allowed to talk at length about his make-believe God based on quantum theory that he learned on YouTube and that's supposed to make perfect sense.


#429    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

View Postscowl, on 08 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

For those keeping score, we aren't allowed to talk about objects like stones because they only exist in our minds.


Well he is right they do exist in minds.. He is living proof, his head is filled with rocks  lol :P

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 08 December 2012 - 09:47 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#430    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,654 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

My definition of God is of the non-duality variety not the Christain one.

The only thing that actually exists is mind. The ideas, beliefs, knowledge, information and perceptions it contains arent objectively real they are subjections.

In a materialist society your are taught that an external reality (outside of your mind) exists and that you are the end product of it (atoms arranged in a certain order). As such your are led into the delusion (without realising it) that you are the sum of your own perceptions. The result is if you have negative thoughts the health of your mind quickly deteriorates.

It is your mind that creates perceptions not perceptions which have created the mind. If you step back and take an unbiased stance you would be able to see that perceptions exist outside of your head. Colour being the perfect example. The reason why perceptions exist outside of your head is because reality and the mind are not two seperate things.

And hence we arrive at non-dualism where everything that exists is mind and the idea of seperate parts is an illusion. Me, you, and everything else are not seperate we are all one which is what God is.
Ah modern descartianism. While you will never accept it, it is of course descartes and yourself who were/are living in an illusion.

That illusion exists because of the nature of the human mind which puts itself centre stage in the universe. it is a similar process to the religious view which once placed earth at the centre of the universe and considered tha the sun must revolve around the earth. I find it fascinating, however, that you have arrived at a central truth, even  through an incorrect concept.   All material things are real;  so is consciousness, because it is a material property of the brain.

Conscious has certain properties, including an abilty to be linked to other consciousnesses, hence the perception /reality of one cosmic consciousness. But  consciousness is not a stand- alone property which came before or existd independently of the material universe. It is an evolved property of the physical/material universe; in part an organic function and perhaps also an engineered and artificial one.
Ps I am not sure how many readers are aawre of this but there is a conjunction between some very modern aspects of science and the descartian model of reality. Indeed the descartian model is used to underpin the scientific theory.
Some scientists argue, and offer proofs, that everything is a matter of human perception and that nothing has reality outside of how we see it. Or more precisely, that reality may exist but we perceive and shape that reality into intelligible form via our  minds/perceptions.
However it is much more common for modern descartians in philosophy to use aspects of modern physics to ARGUE the case  which mr right wing puts forward. It is more valid/accepted as a modern philosophical POV than as a scientific one


To me it doesnt fit the rest of known science and leads us to a dead end as does descartian philosophy Humans are an integral evolved product of the universe. We adapted /evolved to perceive the universe as it is and to interact with it as it is; other wise we could not survive in it. Hence the only realistic view  and the only workable model, is that the universe is exactly as we perceive it to be.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 December 2012 - 11:02 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#431    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,190 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:46 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

There is no wave.
The double slit experiment shows the photon physically behaving as a wave.
Please don't do a Mr Right Wing and pretend it ceases to exist.


#432    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,190 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.
You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.


#433    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:52 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.

Think of it as way for the universe to conserve storge space. Think of doom. You only see what you are looking at. It dosnt mean that the rest of the map isn't there just not constructed yet only programmed for, if the computer constructed every piece of the map at one time it would very quickly use a tremendous amount of space. Instead... Each part of the map carries the instruction for the next part based on what you are  looking at / measuring.

I know it's counter intuitive, but this is exactly how the quantum world behaves.

A good analogy but you are battling against someone with materialism deeply engrained into his mind.


#434    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:38 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 08 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

1. Ah modern descartianism.
2.That illusion exists because of the nature of the human mind which puts itself centre stage in the universe.
3. I find it fascinating, however, that you have arrived at a central truth, even  through an incorrect concept.   All material things are real;  so is consciousness, because it is a material property of the brain.
4. Consciousness is not a stand- alone property which came before or existed independently of the material universe.
5. Some scientists argue, and offer proofs, that everything is a matter of human perception and that nothing has reality outside of how we see it.
6. Reality may exist but we perceive and shape that reality into intelligible form via our  minds/perceptions.
7. However it is much more common for modern descartians in philosophy to use aspects of modern physics to ARGUE the case  which mr right wing puts forward.
8. It is more valid/accepted as a modern philosophical POV than as a scientific one
9. To me it doesnt fit the rest of known science.
10. We adapted evolved to perceive the universe as it is and to interact with it as it is other wise we could not survive in it.

1. A solipsist believes that only their mind exists and everything else is an illusion. I'm not a solipsist I'm a non-dualist. The difference is that I realise the whole universe is my mind because its just a collection of perceptions. Thats the crucial difference.
2. That misconception arises because you dont know the difference between solipsism and non-dualism. My mind isnt at the centre of the universe I am the universe.
3. The reason why you think my concepts are incorrect is you dont know the difference between solipsism and non-dualism.
4. When you cant see that reality is just a collection of perceptions then you mistake your mind for being a product of those perceptions. You mind makes the perceptions it isnt constructed from them.
5. Precisely. Quantum Mechanics has 100s of experiments all saying that.
6. The dual slit experiment shows that not even the atom exists until measured.
7. In what way is Quantum Mechanics not non-dualism? You dont understand either.
8. No, its what Quantum Mechanics says.
9. You dont have a physics degree (or similar) which is why you have that stance. If you knew what they taught you on a physics degree you'd be stunned. You live in a dumbed down society where you arent taught the truth so you dont know any different. The Newtonian view of reality was proved wrong over 100 years ago. We are on Quantum Physics these days.
10. Much of science remains based on the Newtonian view of reality. To date Quantum Mechanics is used in electronics (tvs, pcs, dvd players, etc), in some fields of medicine (x-rays, radiation therapy), in aviation (stealth bombers, radar), in communications (fibre optics, mobile phones, radios) and one or two other little areas. Evolution is at odds with Quantum Mechanics but that field of science hasnt been touched by it, yet.

Treat yourself this Christmans - http://compare.ebay....&var=sbar&cbt=y

View PostRlyeh, on 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.

Did you not understand what was in the video?

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 09 December 2012 - 01:39 PM.


#435    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,509 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.
The josephson junction is the physical proof. I'm not confusing no such thing. A wave has very specific physical properties through a medium. As I mentioned there is no wave. Wave behavior.... Sure superficialy... But no wave.

Listen. The particle does exist but only after being detected. When it is in superposition it's not a thing as we understand things to be. Part of our understanding of "things" is that they exist in spacetime. We know for a fact that an object in superposition can manifest in a range of places ( this is the wave function). If that range extends through a barrier, the particle can manifest on the other side of the barrier without ever haveing to go through the barrier which shows us it is not traveling through spacetime . In fact the wave function does not have a limit. It actually extends throughout the whole universe just decreasing in ever minute probabilities. Fusion in the sun relies on this.

Your mind wants to see the particle traveling through space to strike a detection screen, but this is simply not the case.

I would even consider the particle entering some kind of sub space, but that would be pure speculation. The fact of the matter is that we define THINGS as existing in SPACETIME. A particle in superposition is no longer a thing as we define it.

Uncertainty is not a flaw in our detection abilities. It is a fundamental property of the universe. The quantum world dosnt look fuzzy it IS fuzzy.

You can look it all up yourself. Plenty of research, experiments, and proof is available.

Now. It's quit obvious that these properties of reality are quite complex an operate outside the universe as defined by spacetime. Purely immaterial properties that ultimately govern the material. Fundamental reality has nothing to do with stuff. It has to do with rules that are uniquly calibrated to create reality upon measurement.



"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users