293 replies to this topic

[Swede]

jmccr8, on 26 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hello Swede,

  Yes,thank you for the excellent link, this article shows the types of interactions that I thought were a part of their development.I also came across this article that I thought that I had posted yesterday but for some reason it didn't post.It is quite long but I thought that is was a good read and would like to know what your assessment is of the information presented.

Paleoanthropology

I will also add this link for the use of Red Ocher 200kbp

Sciency Thoughts: Neanderthals using red ochre at least 200 000 years ago.

  I am still curious what circumstance would lead two species to have similar practices of using red ocher as well as head-binding,would these practices be something that they had arrived at independently or would these customs be assumed by one species to another?

As always thanks for your patience.jmccr8

Hi jmccr8. Just a few notes, etc.

In regards to your first reference - In general, reasonably sound. However, it is a bit dated. For general lay purposes, you may find the following to be more current, as it is updated on a more regular basis. Segments of this reference have been presented in the past, but do not recall referring you to the main body.

http://anthro.paloma...mo2/default.htm

The following is also credible:

https://humanorigins...idence/genetics

In regards to the second reference, you may find the original paper to be more informative:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....16/?tool=pubmed

Also:

http://www.scienceda...11013141807.htm

http://cogweb.ucla.e...nguage (Scroll down).

As noted in the paper by Roebroeks, et. al., (2012), the utilization of red ocher is documented to have taken many forms, including utilitarian. This brings us into the realm of the evaluation of cognitive matters. Was the ocher utilized for symbolic purposes, or more pragmatic applications such as adhesives? In addition, we would again be dealing with a limited data-base.

Also, note the timeline aspects as they relate to the utilization of ocher in Europe and Africa. Given current understandings relating to the digression and movement of the two species, it may be tentatively speculated that the utilization of ocher, for whatever purpose, was the result of independant actions.

The cranial binding practice would appear to occur at a notably later time period than the utilization of red ocher and would not appear to have any currently perceived level of universality during the (early) relevant period. Given the (once again) limited examples of such during this period, it may be premature to extrapolate that this practice was the result of species/cultural interaction.

.

[jmccr8]

Hi Swede,

  I had a chance to look through the first three links last night,I had my grand-daughter and she stayed a little later last night so I will do a proper read this evening.This is the type of material that I have been looking for,Thank you so much,from what I have seen so far I will likely have some other questions later,I have got to run for work so have a good day.
jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi Swede,

  I've been quite busy lately and haven't had much time to get back to the discussion.After reading some of the links that you gave I have a couple of questions.

The paper on the use of ochre,they say that it was used in Africa for skin protection,is this to protect them from UV? I thought that darker skin was the natural protection provided by evolution,could you please elaborate if there is other documentation.

  In the last link that you provided about hominid lines they state that there were some Homo Erectus remains found dating to 27kbp-53kbp. I am not implying that there was contact with Hss or Neandertals ,I am just curios as to whether or not H Erectus and Neandertal or H Erectus and Hss would have still been able to interbreed and produce viable offspring?

  I did have some other questions but when I went to refresh my memory and read though your second link I couldn't get the page to load I will try again later as I know that I did see something in there that I wanted to ask you about.

jmccr8

[Swede]

jmccr8, on 06 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Hi Swede,

  I've been quite busy lately and haven't had much time to get back to the discussion.After reading some of the links that you gave I have a couple of questions.

The paper on the use of ochre,they say that it was used in Africa for skin protection,is this to protect them from UV? I thought that darker skin was the natural protection provided by evolution,could you please elaborate if there is other documentation.

  In the last link that you provided about hominid lines they state that there were some Homo Erectus remains found dating to 27kbp-53kbp. I am not implying that there was contact with Hss or Neandertals ,I am just curios as to whether or not H Erectus and Neandertal or H Erectus and Hss would have still been able to interbreed and produce viable offspring?

  I did have some other questions but when I went to refresh my memory and read though your second link I couldn't get the page to load I will try again later as I know that I did see something in there that I wanted to ask you about.

jmccr8

Hi jmccr8. Yes, have been most occupied myself. Travel and research have definitely limited my available time.

Ocher - Bear in mind that the Blombos Cave article utilized the qualifier possibly. Without further data (genetic), it would be rather difficult to begin to postulate on the levels of melanin production amongst the individuals involved. Am unaware of any studies in this regard. Issues of preservation come into play. To date, the only human remains recovered consist of nine teeth. Also note that the ethnographic studies cited by Roebroeks, et. al. (2012) refer to the utilization of ocher as an insect repellent, another form of skin protection.

H. erectus/viability - Am again unaware of any research that would support interbreeding with sapiens, neanderthalensis, or the Denisovans. While, at this juncture, it may be premature to issue an absolutist statement, it would be my personal inclination to suggest that the probability of such would be quite low.

When one considers the divergence of erectus from ergaster some 1.8 million BP and the much more recent divergence of sapiens from heidelbergensis, genetic compatibility would not likely be conducive to viable offspring. Again, just my thoughts.

.

[Idano]

I swear my first husband had a super orbital ridge

[Swede]

Idano, on 07 October 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I swear my first husband had a super orbital ridge

Not at all unlikely. The degree of prominence of the supraorbital ridge of the frontal bone is actually one of the distinguishing characteristics between the cranial structures of males and females amongst H.s.s. The degree of expression of this feature can vary.

.

[jmccr8]

Hi Swede,

  Thanks for the response,yes after re-reading the article after some sleep the eyes were working much better,or maybe the eyes were fine and the brain was tired but I got it now.
I still can't get your second link to open,as I said earlier I had read it once and would like to go over it in more depth,has the article been deleted,or is there another means by which that I can find it?

jmccr8

[Swede]

jmccr8, on 09 October 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Hi Swede,

  Thanks for the response,yes after re-reading the article after some sleep the eyes were working much better,or maybe the eyes were fine and the brain was tired but I got it now.
I still can't get your second link to open,as I said earlier I had read it once and would like to go over it in more depth,has the article been deleted,or is there another means by which that I can find it?

jmccr8

jmccr8 - Hopefully, the following will function properly.

http://humanorigins....idence/genetics

Let me know if there are any further issues.

Swede

[jmccr8]

Thanks Swede,

  That link is working fine much appreciated.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I came across a few articles that I thought that I would include in this thread.The first article is about the cannibalism 800kbp,now this is a different hominid line,and the link after is about 4 hominid lines that went extinct.

     Early Cannibalism Tied to Territorial Defense? | Hominid Hunting

    Four Species of Homo You've Never Heard Of | Hominid Hunting

  This article is on the earliest modern human fossils found in SE Asia

   Lao skull earliest example of modern human fossil in Southeast Asia

  I have these two links for Neanderthals,the first is about their hunting abilities and the second deals with their occupation in Europe.

  Neandertals Sophisticated And Fearless Hunters, New Analysis Shows

  The Last Neandertals? Late Neandertals And Modern Human Contact In Southeastern Iberia


   I am going to include this link on the aquatic ape theory as well


   A New Aquatic Ape Theory | Hominid Hunting

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I saw this article about French researchers and Norwegian and Russian scientist that are studying the Byzovaya site in the Polar Ural region of Northern Russia. They have found signs of mammoth and reindeer that bear the traces of butchering by Mousterian hunters dating is stated to be at 28,500bp.

  This site is a 1000 kilometers north of any other know sites and may have occured after the proposed demise of the Neandertal culture.

    Last Neanderthals near the Arctic Circle?

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I am also going to post these two links that I found, the first describes the use of cosmetics and body ornamentation from as site in Spain dating to 50kbp, so we know that this behavior is not due to influence of copying Homo Sapiens as they were not know to each other at this time. This shows that their behavior was symbolically organized.

  Use of body ornamentation shows Neanderthal mind capable of advanced thought

  This second link discusses that scientists have confirmed that there were 3 sub-groups of Neandertals with a possible forth in Western Asia based on morphologigal skeletal evidence.Their is hope that this study with give better insight into regional diversity.

  Three Neanderthal Sub-groups Confirmed

jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

jmccr8, on 14 October 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I saw this article about French researchers and Norwegian and Russian scientist that are studying the Byzovaya site in the Polar Ural region of Northern Russia. They have found signs of mammoth and reindeer that bear the traces of butchering by Mousterian hunters dating is stated to be at 28,500bp.

  This site is a 1000 kilometers north of any other know sites and may have occured after the proposed demise of the Neandertal culture.

Last Neanderthals near the Arctic Circle?

jmccr8

You may be interested to know that there's another site nearby that's a bit older at c.34,400 BP - 37,400 BP known as Mamontovaya Kurya. Also the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site c.26,250 BC which is some 1700+ miles east is further north than either of the first two sites.

http://donsmaps.com/kurya.html

http://archaeology.a...qt/yana_rhs.htm

cormac

[jmccr8]

Hi Cormac,

  Great links and thanks for adding them.Every since I started focusing on this avenue of interest I seem to be in a constant state of awe,when I first began to look into Hss and Neandertal interaction I was under the impression that anywhere north of Africa was basically a giant game reserve as there would have been no hominid activity until70-90kbp,but as I have looked around I can see how little I knew. Every time I see an article I find more that tells me such a different story, now I see that hominids have been in Great Briton at 800bp,at this point I doubt that I will live long enough to truely quench my curiosity,to bad I don't have enough time to devote to my interests on a daily basis but I do what I can with what time I can spare.

  I don't think that I can adequately express how much I appreciate the guidance that you,Swede,Puzzler,Abe,Kmt-Moderator-sesh and several others have been to me in inspiring me to move forward to grow in understanding.I know that I do not phrase things the right way at times and thank all of you for you patience and willingness to help,I worked by myself for may years in my trade and it has consumed much of my life so I have some difficulty expressing my thoughts at times, I've been talking to myself for so many years that I some times forget that none of you were there and missed some of the great conversations that I had with me.Haha

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi,
  I know it has been a while since I have been active in this thread,but it has always been on my mind.I have been trying to find information that would show me qualities that were unique to neandertals or Hss,this has not been as simple as it sounds as they were more similar than not.This doesn't come as a surprise as they diverged from a common ancestor and would have developed with similar social structure and technology.

  I did find some articles that I found interesting and will post links to them,I would like it if those of you who have participated in the past,or any others who share an interest in this subject would respond to any of the information that is put forward.

  I did have two articles on tool-making but deleted instead of copying the link I will try to find it again as it showed a stable long term occupation in England 50kbp and there were several tousand artifacts discovered.This  the link to the one I still have.
On Neandertal Stone Tools & Estimations Of Their Intelligence « Anthropology.net

  This next link shows that Neandertals had a seafood diet much earlier than previously known
Neanderthal man lived on seafood far earlier than previously thought - Telegraph

This following article discusses how far Neandertals spread out over geographic areas
Neanderthal empire grows - Telegraph

  This link discusses cannibalism but I thought that some of the information on dna was interesting
Grisly Scene Gives Clues to Neandertal Family Structure - ScienceNOW

Swede or Cormac I would like your views on this following link,now I will say right off that I am not in agreement with what their projection of longetivity but for the article I was curious as to wheter or not there was any accuracy in the information presented by the author

The Neanderthal Theory of Autism

  This final link describes wooden structures used by Neandertals and suggests that it would identify working transient groups that either returned to this site as a stop-over or was used by several similar working groups as they traveled to and fro.They also suggest that these small groups were part of a larger group that was established elsewhere.

A Very Remote Period Indeed: Neanderthal wooden structures, sleeping areas and group size at Abric Romaní
Thanks for your time
jmccr8