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Divinity of Christ


JDT3

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If you do not believe in the divinity of Christ, you cannot believe in the virgin birth; if you do not believe in the virgin birth, you must believe the New Testament to be unreliable.

What say You?

JT

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Ummm.... I suppose "welcome" would be a good beginning to your first post! I think. For the record, 80-90% of members here on the forums don't accept the virgin birth. As a Christian, I do personally believe it happened (along with the Resurrection), but this is a minority in this particular place, so beginning your career here with a post that will alienate the majority of members may not be the best place to start. Why not just say "hi, I'mJDT3, I'm here to learn what you guys think about the universe".... good luck, if you stick around I hope you will learn some things from your stay here :)

~ Regards, PA

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Welcome to the UM.

What PA said...

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Welcome to UM, JDT3. Hope you have thick skin and a sense of humor :w00t:

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Yes, welcome! Don't be bothered too much if members here disagree with you! Stay the course! :)

I think what you say has truth in it. I personally don't believe in the divinity of Christ, or of anyone else. But if you do, stick to your beliefs as long as you believe, but be open to and listen to other's opinions with understanding.

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Welcome.

PA is way ahead of me ("as usual," I can hear him saying). I missed where you told us whether doubting the virgin birth, Jesus' dvinity or the reliability of the New Testament were good things or bad things in your estimation.

You haven't "alienated" me yet, although you're invited to give it your best shot :).

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OK, all of you are right about the saying Hi. So, Hi, I'm a newbie, and it's not my intent to offend anyone with any post that I make in any of the forums. However, in this post, I am just following the logic from what I have read in the Bible. I'm not taking a position one-way-or-the-other, nor will I condemn, or praise anyone's else's reply, but I may ask a question. I posted this because I am curious to see how various people from various places, and walks of life would see this. I am seeking knowledge in this post.

Anyway, I'm excited to be here. Before I found this website, I was ready to build a similar one myself, so that I might be able to share ideas, and some of the thoughts that drift through my mind with other people that have the same interests.

Finally, thank all of you for the welcome, and once again, I'm glad to be here.

J.T.

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Christ's dual nature as wholly human and wholly divine is literally the central tenet of Christianity. All Christianity. Everywhere.

The virgin birth and New Testament would, of course, be unreliable and entirely irrelevant if one doesn't believe in the divinity/humanity of Christ, almost like they didn't practice the Christian religion, or something. But, as we all know, such an absurdity is beyond the pale of reason in this world.

Your question's the same as asking someone's opinion of the new Star Trek spinoff set in the Federation's central office. No matter what the show's about, how it's written, or how it's acted, it's not Star Trek; it involves neither stars, nor trekking.

So what exactly is your question about Christianity, sans the Christ-God?

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If you do not believe in the divinity of Christ, you cannot believe in the virgin birth; if you do not believe in the virgin birth, you must believe the New Testament to be unreliable.

What say You?

JT

Totally! And don't even ask what I think of the Old Testament!

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If you do not believe in the divinity of Christ, you cannot believe in the virgin birth; if you do not believe in the virgin birth, you must believe the New Testament to be unreliable.

What say You?

JT

Welcome to UM....

First of all, your premise is false. You state: "If you...." (then) "You must..."

Not so. A person can honestly question our understanding of the text (of the story) of the virgin birth, without questioning the reliability of that story at all. It is, after all-- an account. There are many perspectives--- For example you don't delineate between "the divinity of the Christ" and the humanity of 'the man' Jesus. This is important because while some people will be quick to tell you that they recognize and accept a duality of meanings of a great many things in the bible, they can't seem to wrap their heads around this particular duality (flesh versus spirit). Many people do.

Another example is set by the term "virgin" which might simply be referring to a young unmarried girl who conceptually (conceives of) a child in a spiritual sense. In this sense we are all "virgins" who receive the Spirit within ourselves and the Christ-child grows inside. Like Mary, we accept our circumstance and give birth to God-within.

On Sunday, I listened to a wonderful teacher who did a great job personifying "wisdom" (Sophia) as a woman calling out for followers to come and eat.... (Proverbs). Likewise-- Folly (foolishness) was depicted as a wayward woman, similarly calling for followers to come and dine with her.... Anyways-- from this wonderful analogy he (the teacher) immediately leapt to a literal reference of the mistake made in the garden when man ate from a forbidden tree. He didn't distinguish story from story, instead recognizing one as story while one he insists is literal. So too with this virgin story.

The problem is not with the text itself, but with one's understanding. The text can be wholly reliable as it stands-- accounts recalled and recorded by men.... Yet, wholly misunderstood even by those who purport to teach others.

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The virgin birth and resurection are myths. They are symbolic additions to Jesus' biography to fit the claim by some of his followers that he was literally

the Son of God. I personally don't think they are necessery to fully grasp the original message of Jesus. He has helped people of his time understand

truths and given them the tool and knowledge to do so. His message lives on today. As such, he should be seen more as a prophet and teacher.

Edited by Phenix20
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If you do not believe in the divinity of Christ, you cannot believe in the virgin birth; if you do not believe in the virgin birth, you must believe the New Testament to be unreliable.

What say You?

JT

Essentially correct. The Bible either says what it does and you believe it or you do not. As for His divinity there are many references in Scripture. Here are a few:

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. 1:14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was I AM."

A virgin birth is hardly impossible for God who created the universe with just a word, and it was necessary since all humans, according to Scripture are sinners, by act but also by heredity (i.e. a sinner can only give birth to sinners) so for a sinless child to be born it could not be by human means or by two human parents, thus Jesus was born by the Holy Spirit, according to Scripture.

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A sinless Jesus isn't a necessity. In fact, it would be a cruel God who sends a sinless man to be an unattainable example that none can reach. That wouldn't be 'good news' at all. Hi-- I'm Jesus. Live like me--- ha ha.... of course, you can't because you are a loser human and I'm not.

A perfect model is no model at all for an imperfect humanity. If that was the case, there would have been no need to send an example.

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A sinless Jesus isn't a necessity. In fact, it would be a cruel God who sends a sinless man to be an unattainable example that none can reach. That wouldn't be 'good news' at all. Hi-- I'm Jesus. Live like me--- ha ha.... of course, you can't because you are a loser human and I'm not.

A perfect model is no model at all for an imperfect humanity. If that was the case, there would have been no need to send an example.

I must disagree. According to the Bible, the consequences of sin is death. If Jesus had sinned, then his death could pay only for his own sins. But if he was sinless, then he died a wrongful death, a death that was travesty to everything God stood for. Thus the resurrection - death had no hold of him. Because of this resurrection, it became possible for those who say "I am a sinner, have mercy on me", and then when we arrive at the judgement seat instead of seeing us and our sinful ways, God looks and sees only the sinless death of Christ. Which leads to eternal life.

I don't mean to preach, I'm just sharing orthodox Christian (particularly protestant, though to one extent or another it exists in most orthodox Christian) views. Sure, I get your point to an extent that Jesus' example is an unattainable goal. But the point I see in Jesus' life is that we should to the very best of our abilities try and emulate that life. We won't succeed but he gives us a template on which we can base our lives and attempt to live as best we can.

Just my view :)

~ PA

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I'm aware of the common (orthodox) teaching, I just think it's misguided.

Why send as a sample of how to live an example of one you are nothing like.

Jesus said-- Follow me--- ha ha... Of course, you can't!

By making Jesus "different" than any of us you provide a convenient excuse for not following his example. When you teach that we all fall short, you either include Jesus as part of humanity or you exclude all of humanity from the validity of his example. The gospel of John makes clear that Jesus taught we are not different from him in nature or circumstance.

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The gospel of John makes clear that Jesus taught we are not different from him in nature or circumstance.

Don't his miracles and divinity teach otherwise?

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Don't his miracles and divinity teach otherwise?

Hearsay everyone is capable of miracles, though they must be acknowledged by god before they happen.

Edited by MeOnlyMe
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Don't his miracles and divinity teach otherwise?

No. There are many accounts of miracles done by others with no claim to divinity.

Even Jesus points away from himself saying there are none good but God-- drawing a clear distinction between himself and God.

Miracles are the result of divine intervention and by the power of God, not the performance of man. Moses, Elijah, Samson, Joshua, and scores of other were said to have done miracles, but we don't think of any of these men as being divine.

Jesus (as recorded in John) prays that we are not of the world, just as he is not of the world. That we will be one with God, just as he is one with God. That God in him and he in God will be just as God in us and us in God, he in us and us in him. Where does he say he is different than us? He prays for complete unity.

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I'm aware of the common (orthodox) teaching, I just think it's misguided.

I know that you know that the common orthodox view disagrees with you. I was pointing it out partly for those who are reading this thread to know that your views are not mainstream Christianity, and partly to show why it is we believe otherwise.

Why send as a sample of how to live an example of one you are nothing like.

Jesus said-- Follow me--- ha ha... Of course, you can't!

By making Jesus "different" than any of us you provide a convenient excuse for not following his example. When you teach that we all fall short, you either include Jesus as part of humanity or you exclude all of humanity from the validity of his example. The gospel of John makes clear that Jesus taught we are not different from him in nature or circumstance.

This is a misunderstanding of Christian theology in many ways. It has nothing to do with providing a "convenient excuse". There can be NO EXCUSE for sin. For sin leads to death. However, we can repent, and repentance is a massive part of Christian theology. Repentance, by the way, is not a euphemism for saying "convenient excuse". IF you aren't truly repentant you cannot be forgiven.
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LG

Don't his miracles and divinity teach otherwise?

John is an interesting and complicated work. It is in some respects witness to contact between proto-orthodox and Gnostic elements in "late early" Christianity. The most clearly divine piece, the Prologue, was happily embraced by those who saw Jesus as a created being - "divine" in the sense of being the first and most powerful of creatures, but essentally like us, only better. That view became heretical in the Fourth Century (and was controversial before then).Even today, when an Islamic apologist argues for the humanity of their Isa, you get tons of quotes from John.

Under the circumstances, I would be cautious about assigning a grand interpretation to the work as a whole. Jack's idea that

The gospel of John makes clear that Jesus taught we are not different from him in nature or circumstance.

is not easily dismissed. To become Christ-like may be the point of the exercise. Jesus is exceptional in knowing his nature from birth, but his motive for teaching Earthlings about the cosmic situation may be that his listeners can learn it and elevate themselves.

It is true, however, that John focuses on Jesus doing miracles more than the synoptics, which focus on the disciples expereincing miracles. That is a difference, I think, but not necessarily fatal to the idea that Jack mentioned. John also moves the spotlight within the disciples away from the "synoptic usual suspects" and onto other disciples (Thomas has two speaking scenes in John, in the synoptics, he's "Tom who?") and Mary (in the synoptics, the crazy lady and later read out as a whore based on supposed synoptic grounds). That may account for some of John's downplaying of the disciples as apprentice magicians - at the cost of making Jesus seem exceptionally magical.

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I see that we have a knowledgeable group here; thank you for your input. It's a lot to think about.

J.T.

Edited by JDT3
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No. There are many accounts of miracles done by others with no claim to divinity.

Even Jesus points away from himself saying there are none good but God-- drawing a clear distinction between himself and God.

Miracles are the result of divine intervention and by the power of God, not the performance of man. Moses, Elijah, Samson, Joshua, and scores of other were said to have done miracles, but we don't think of any of these men as being divine.

Jesus (as recorded in John) prays that we are not of the world, just as he is not of the world. That we will be one with God, just as he is one with God. That God in him and he in God will be just as God in us and us in God, he in us and us in him. Where does he say he is different than us? He prays for complete unity.

Glad you pointed these out because Jesus, the man, was merely the conduit of Christ or Christos. Christ possessed Jesus, so to speak. That's one theory.
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Jesus (as recorded in John) prays that we are not of the world, just as he is not of the world. That we will be one with God, just as he is one with God. That God in him and he in God will be just as God in us and us in God, he in us and us in him. Where does he say he is different than us?

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". He sounds like he's fairly different than us there.

Jack's idea that "The gospel of John makes clear that Jesus taught we are not different from him in nature or circumstance." is not easily dismissed. To become Christ-like may be the point of the exercise. Jesus is exceptional in knowing his nature from birth, but his motive for teaching Earthlings about the cosmic situation may be that his listeners can learn it and elevate themselves.

I guess it may be true that Jesus may have literally taught we are not different from him, but it seems other things he taught counter this. I thought Jesus was also exceptional in that he was actually part of the godhead which I assume is part of what has led to the idea of the Trinity, which the rest of us humans do not seem to be a part of. Although I don't think this statement is literally in the Bible, statements of this sort I tend to lump together into the 'Jesus is fully human and fully divine' bucket, which I consider at best to be a word game and at worst to be contradictory; if you don't have to worry about suffering pain or disease that you don't specifically agree to, we're drifting away from part of what it means to be fully human. I guess there is obviously a lot of wiggle room in 'nature' and 'circumstance', but he sure seems to be a different creature than us in very significant ways; even his ability to never sin seems to set him apart from us at least in 'nature'.

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"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". He sounds like he's fairly different than us there.

when, where and to whom did Jesus "Christ" say this quote? Was it in public for all to hear? Or, was it specifically told to his chosen disciples (like a secret teaching)?
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