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In the blink of an Eye...

rapture end times apocalyptic literature revelation the bible

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#46    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:23 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 24 June 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

What do you think about this passage:

"and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood..." (Revelation 1:5 ESV)

Isn't it saying that Jesus already rules as king?
http://www.ucg.org/d...ingdom-god-now/

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."

#47    coolguy

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:05 AM

The word rapture was started by some minster in either the 1700s or 1800s


#48    ambelamba

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:23 AM

View Postcoolguy, on 27 June 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

The word rapture was started by some minster in either the 1700s or 1800s

Actually the concept was already in the Bible. It wasn't really popularized until later. Until someone popularizes it, people don't see it from the Bible.

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#49    Low Mage

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:46 AM

View Postcoolguy, on 27 June 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

The word rapture was started by some minster in either the 1700s or 1800s

Indeed.

Quote

John Nelson Darby first proposed and popularized the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren movements in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, especially with movements and teachings associated with Christian eschatology and fundamentalism, primarily through their writings.

Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pre-tribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members.

Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pre-tribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

There is a very good reason why belief in the rapture is more popular among American Christians and wherever their missionaries went but not popular among global Christian communities outside of their traditions.

That reason was because it was popularized in America. Darby, while from the UK, did come to America where his ideas were latched upon. The Scofield Reference Bible was what really spread it.

Americans think they are right about everything, some do. People all across the world are not thinking about the end of the world, just American Christians, but not all, not me.

A more detailed view can be found here: http://www.ucg.org/d...false-doctrine/

Edited by The world needs you, 27 June 2013 - 07:48 AM.


#50    Jor-el

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 27 June 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Indeed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

There is a very good reason why belief in the rapture is more popular among American Christians and wherever their missionaries went but not popular among global Christian communities outside of their traditions.

That reason was because it was popularized in America. Darby, while from the UK, did come to America where his ideas were latched upon. The Scofield Reference Bible was what really spread it.

Americans think they are right about everything, some do. People all across the world are not thinking about the end of the world, just American Christians, but not all, not me.

A more detailed view can be found here: http://www.ucg.org/d...false-doctrine/

I certainly don't agree with the link and your opinion that the rapture is a false doctrine, if anything it is very biblical.

Not only does the link provide erroneous information in that it was invented or created by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century, which I have already demonstrated on this very thread to by utterly false and malicious, but it then goes on to utterly give us an erroneous interpretation of scripture that it uses to try and back the claim of false doctrine.

Was he responding to a worry about whether Christ would rescue believers from the Great Tribulation? No, nothing is said of this.
Nor is there anything in these verses that intimates Christ making a swooping pass by the earth to snatch off a few people to take them to heaven. These verses refer only to the doctrine of the second coming, at which time Jesus sets foot on the earth.

One slight detail in all that word juggling, Jesus doesn't set foot on the earth... "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

I wonder if the author can actually read...

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#51    Low Mage

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:35 PM

The author can read and having to insult him personally over a difference of opinion places a low value on that criticism.

What we know is that most Christians before, even here in America, used to or still believe that there was going to be no rapture. Instead at the last judgment God would take away the saints, those buried, those alive, and that would be it. They had no notions of any Middle Eastern nation being a pivotal part of prophecy, nothing about the Antichrist setting up shop in Jerusalem, no tribulation, nothing.

The pre-trib rapture is a fantasy view invented mainly in Anglo-American circles and widely circulated here but not a dominant view. Not even most American Christians buy into the rapture.


#52    Jor-el

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 27 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

The author can read and having to insult him personally over a difference of opinion places a low value on that criticism.

What we know is that most Christians before, even here in America, used to or still believe that there was going to be no rapture. Instead at the last judgment God would take away the saints, those buried, those alive, and that would be it. They had no notions of any Middle Eastern nation being a pivotal part of prophecy, nothing about the Antichrist setting up shop in Jerusalem, no tribulation, nothing.

The pre-trib rapture is a fantasy view invented mainly in Anglo-American circles and widely circulated here but not a dominant view. Not even most American Christians buy into the rapture.

I was purposely being sarcastic, since it is quite clear from the excerpt I did quote exactly the juggling he is doing...

Let me ask you a question...

You say that the church will meet Christ upon his second coming, is that not correct?

Then please explain to us all how the church is also supposed to be all present and accounted for in heaven before that second coming actually happens...

Edited by Jor-el, 27 June 2013 - 07:46 PM.

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#53    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostJor-el, on 27 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I certainly don't agree with the link and your opinion that the rapture is a false doctrine, if anything it is very biblical.
Hi Jor-el,

I actually linked their "Are We in the Kingdom of God Now?" article because it sounded solid to me. On the other hand, the reason for the Rapture inconsistency is the fact that the United Church of Christ is a "reformed" Protestant Christian denomination. It's based on Calvinism.

Like you, I, too, am a premillennialist.

Peace.
.

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."

#54    Jor-el

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 27 June 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Hi Jor-el,

I actually linked their "Are We in the Kingdom of God Now?" article because it sounded solid to me. On the other hand, the reason for the Rapture inconsistency is the fact that the United Church of Christ is a "reformed" Protestant Christian denomination. It's based on Calvinism.

Like you, I, too, am a premillennialist.

Peace.
.

Well that explains the link, it is interesting though that the author of the article goes so far as to source his defense with the Catholic Encyclopedia...

"Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the [rapture doctrine], even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history" ("Catholic Answers," http://www.catholic....ary/Rapture.asp ).

They ignore blatant evidence by the early church fathers as well as the Apostolic Fathers, who not only taught pre-millenniumism but also the rapture... It is the church that turned away from scripture for 1500 years, not scripture that "doesn't say" what it says.

The Shepherd of Hermas (110 A.D.)

Shepherd of Hermas, written in A.D. 88 to 97 and published in A.D. 110

The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision. "like a bride going froth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." the virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing."

2[23]:4 "Thou didst escape it well," saith she, "because thou didst cast thy care upon God, and didst open thy heart to the Lord, believing that thou canst be saved by nothing else but by His great and glorious Name. Therefore the Lord sent His angel, which is over the beasts, whose name is Segri, and shut his mouth that it might not hurt thee. Thou hast escaped a great tribulation by reason of thy faith, and because, though thou sawest so huge a beast, thou didst not doubt in thy mind.

2[23]:5 Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty works, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If therefore ye prepare yourselves beforehand, and repent (and turn) unto the Lord with your whole heart, ye shall be able to escape it, if your heart be made pure and without blemish, and if for the remaining days of your life ye serve the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord and He will set them straight.

http://www.earlychri...-lightfoot.html

The Shepherd of Hermas is a Christian literary work of the 1st or 2nd century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus. The Shepherd had great authority in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It was bound with New Testament in the Codex Sinaiticus, and it was listed between the Acts of the Apostles and the Acts of Paul in the stichometrical list of the Codex Claromontanus.

Wikipedia

Edited by Jor-el, 27 June 2013 - 10:17 PM.

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#55    danielost

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostJor-el, on 10 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:



No, it refers to an event that will happen typically thought to occur 7 years or so before the actual 2nd coming of Christ. It is a reference to the belief that the church or more specifically the Body of Christ will not suffer the 7 years of the Great Tribulation... which is what is implied by the One world government, the anti-Christ and the devastation of Gods wrath on the world.

The bible says there will be seven years of suffering, but for the good it will be cut to four.  Which I think isreal will sign a seven year peace treaty.  But, the peace will only last four years.  It will be broken by the one who sponsered it.  He/she will go from hero to tirant.  He will control the un. The united states, isreal, and it looks like england will stand against him/them in a final battle.

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There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
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