10 replies to this topic

[spursfan]

should nicholas II, tsar of russia and who was executed, along with his family, be granted sainthood ?.

It was certainly terrible what happened to him and his family and nicholas's rule was a lot less bloody than what was to come, but in my view if he had granted a constitution and some sort of constitutional monarchy and democracy to the russian people in say 1905, when he had the chance than he wouldn't have been killed and russia wouldn't have been cursed with lenin or stalin. A friend tells me his wife alexandra was determined to keep the absolute monarchy.

I know the orthodox church considers them to be martyrs.

Also, is there any mystery left as to the fate of the romanov's ?. I think all the bodies have been found now. Is there anyone who believes there is any doubt to their fate (anastasia's survival etc ?).

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

have there been three miracles performed by him/invoking his spirit?

[Hilander]

I doubt the man deserves sainthood but he didn't deserve to be shot, especially the kids.  He shouldn't of got messed up with that holly man, can't think of his name right now.  Plus he should of gave up some of his power like the monarchy in England did and there would still be a czar.  I have a feeling if the Russian people had known what he was going to be replaced with they might of not been as quick to kill him.  Stalin was a horrible man and Lenin wasn't much better.

Edited by Hilander, 08 January 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[Abramelin]

Rasputin, and no relation with that other creep, Putin.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

actually, he did institute a full "British style constituion" before the end.
The Leninites shot him anyway.

Ii've actually been told by a Communist that the children had to die because if they lived the counter-revolutonaries would have used them to smother the Revolution, he has absolutely no remorse or compjnction about it. It had to be done and, here's the scary thing, if it had to be done again he'd be happy with it.

[ealdwita]

The Tsar and his family have already been canonized by certain sections of the Russian Orthodox Church, but whether the man responsible for Russia's Bloody Sunday, a virulent anti-Semitic progrom, almost off-hand executions of his opponents, and whose total incompetency in running military matters led to an ignominious defeat at the hands of a much weaker Japan and the loss of 3.3 million of his subjects during WWI, should be accepted as an Orthodox 'mainstream' saint, is open to question IMO. By saying that, I in no way condone the actions of Lenin, Trotsky  and their vicious bunch of Bolshevist thugs, but Nicky for Sainthood? I dunno.

spursfan, on 08 January 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Also, is there any mystery left as to the fate of the Romanov's ?. I think all the bodies have been found now. Is there anyone who believes there is any doubt to their fate (Anastasia's survival etc ?).

All of the remains of the Tsar's five children were identified by DNA tests in 2009. Apart from the well-known saga of Anastasia, there was a rumour that the second daughter, Tatiana had escaped with the help of an English Cavalry officer attached to the War Liaison Staff in St.Petersburg, and smuggled to England where she married him, and is now buried in a country churchyard in Kent. I'll try and dig out more info about that. (Just a legend though. Shame!)

Try not to blame Nicholas for Rasputin - the monk's involvement arose from the desperation of a mother with a very sick child!

[G Donnelly]

ealdwita, on 08 January 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Try not to blame Nicholas for Rasputin - the monk's involvement arose from the desperation of a mother with a very sick child!

The poor kid was suffering from nosebleeds all the time.
But from such a wealthy dynasty they could easily afford a top notch doctor.
They heard of Rasputin's reputation but didn't realise what a maverick he really was.
To think that such an influential family would give in to superstition,isn't it any wonder a Revolution kicked off.
The Romanovs didn't exactly think of the people's overall wishes especially amongst the workers.
I wonder if the Revoultionaries heard about Rasputin through the grapevine.
So in a nutshell I don't think Nicholas Romanov should be canonised.
Despite the irony of the Russian Orthodox church being phased out by communism.
Somebody truly bound by his religious faith shouldn't have called on the services of Rasputin.
It's a shame the kids got shot for the sins of the father.

Edited by Medium Brown, 08 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Church was only waiting until all bodies found and 100% certainty of identification of all. With discovery of Alexei and one of his sisters, which one still uncertain but all now accounted for, a few years back, then it is likely they will be officially "saints" on 100 year anniversary. Probably also Dr Botkin will be a "saint". Personally I think it is all nonsense, though if anybody gets chance to visit Ekaterinburg, perhaps in 2018 world cup? I recomend the Cathedral on the Blood, built on site of Ipatiev house. Also the wooden church and shrines at site of their burial in woods outside city.

[ealdwita]

Medium Brown, on 08 January 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

The poor kid was suffering from nosebleeds all the time.
But from such a wealthy dynasty they could easily afford a top notch doctor.

If it were only nosebleeds! The Tsarevich Alexei was several times on the brink of death and in severe pain, and Rasputin seemed to be able to ease the boy's painful symptoms - something which 'top notch doctors' were unable to achieve. What partially sealed Rasputin's fate were the rumours of his adulterous relationship with the Tsarina (a German, who was under suspicion of being a German spy!) As for falling for superstition - poor Alix was so desperate to help her son, (and not being the sharpest knife in the kitchen) was only too ready to accept any assistance she was offered!

[spursfan]

ealdwita, among several books on the romanov's i have is the story you mention about tatania being rescued and living in britain. I haven't read it all as its not a very good read but i know the outline. The book is by michael occleshaw and is called the romanov conspiracies.

My view is that nicholas was a bad ruler, as ealdwita writes, hundreds died in a crush on the day of his coronation and he still went ahead and celebrated that night (though i have read it was his uncles that persuaded him to go ahead with the ball). He should've granted democratic reform instead of hanging on to power. Lenin was a really nasty piece of work and its no surprise to me that he had even the children killed - they should've been exiled, but lenin wanted to wipe out the whole line.
I live in britain and at first the british government offered the romanov's exile in this country but the king, who was nicholas's cousin, was worried about how the country would react to this and virtually told the government to withdraw the invitation.

Edited by spursfan, 09 January 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[ealdwita]

Thanks for that info, spursfan. I'll keep my eyes open for the book. I'm sure I've seen other sources though.