11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 17 February 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

... in the Dutch province of Noordholland (the area of West-Friesland)

Allow me a little nitpick.

To avoid confusion, I would suggest to use "West-Friesland" for the western part of Friesland, and "Westfriesland" for the region in North-Holland.

BTW, I have noticed that on Frisian radio, they usually refer to Westfriesland as "de kop van Noord-Holland".

Ice-skaters from typical Westfrisian villages are never called Westfrisians, probably because they would find it confusing, but the result is, that many Frisians don't even know that "Westfriesland" exists.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 17 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I published a new transcription

On your site I read:
"[p. 1] ADELA."

This page does not exist.

And:
"Moet zijn: TO HAPE HROPA"

I have shown you that WOPA is good Oldfrisian and fits perfectly here.

And:
"29 - ON HJA FRUCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA WR-
30 ALDAS . OD"

Conclusion: your 'corrected' transliteration is worthless.

I will not use it.

Quote

Besides it is for the first time, that the lines have been numbered.

Man, when are you finally going to do your homework?

Jensma's version (2006) contains a corrected transliteration (better than yours!) with numbered lines.

Edited by Otharus, 18 February 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 17 February 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

The funny thing in reincarnation stories is, that the reincarnated persons were always mighty people in their past lives.

And when will you post something that is at least half witty?

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

That was a good read Abe, you have an entertaining writing style.

Dreams have always fascinated me, I remember some from when I was only 5.

I like your explanation of the 'clairvoyant' woman (in a more recent post).

But how do you explain that dream?

Had you been watching films, documentaries, been reading related books?

I have changed my mind about those Greek priests. They should be older.

You might be better as a see-dog (Dutch: zee-rob).

We'll need many.

No, I cannot remember I ever read about the Shardana or ancient Corsica or Sardinia, but the possibility remains that I did read something, maybe when I was  6 or 8 or something, and had forgotten all about it.
But I do remember something that happend when I could not even look over the edge of our balcony (I had to look through its vertical bars because I was still too small ) and saw my mother leave on her bike to Scheveningen to visit her mother. I cried my eyes out because I thought she would never come back...and drown at sea!! And that I can remember very clearly.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 17 February 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

The number 32 belongs to the series 4 - 8 -16 - 32 -64 , being the number of katerns.
It may also be the number of the 32 letters of the OLB alphabet.

More basically (long before there were 'katerns' or 'letters'), 32 is 2 to the 5th exponent (2x2x2x2x2), the number of ancestors in the 5th generation (grandparents of great-grandparents).

Edited by Otharus, 18 February 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

More basically (long before there were 'katerns' or 'letters'), 32 is 2 to the 5th exponent (2x2x2x2x2), the number of ancestors in the 5th generation (grandparents of great-grandparents).

The number 32 is also equal to 1 + 2² + 3³ (and that should be 1 to the power of 1).

And then there are those 2 letters, -W- and -GS- , that are left out of the Yule wheel table on page 46 of the manuscript. The letter letter -W- shows up very frequently, the letter -GS- only in the OLB word "segs".

If it really is somekind of 'message' or code, what can we do with or make from -W- and -GS- ?

WGS / WSG / GSW / GWS / SWG / SGW ?? W = VV = UU?? >> GWS=GUUS? No idea at all.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 February 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Allow me a little nitpick.

To avoid confusion, I would suggest to use "West-Friesland" for the western part of Friesland, and "Westfriesland" for the region in North-Holland.

BTW, I have noticed that on Frisian radio, they usually refer to Westfriesland as "de kop van Noord-Holland".

Ice-skaters from typical Westfrisian villages are never called Westfrisians, probably because they would find it confusing, but the result is, that many Frisians don't even know that "Westfriesland" exists.

I often use west/south/north/east without a capital. And that's for the non-Dutch here. So it would be west Friesland when I mean the western part of the province of Friesland. I know the new (?) spelling of for instance Noordholland is now Noord-Holland, but that will only confuse those who are not Dutch (as you know, many foreign people say "Holland" instead of "the Netherlands"; you may have noticed I always use "the Netherlands").

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

32 is 2 to the 5th exponent (2x2x2x2x2), the number of ancestors in the 5th generation (grandparents of great-grandparents).

Or, if every parent would bring forth 1 daughter and 1 son, starting with one pair:

2 exp 0 = 1
A

2 exp 1 = 2
O1 x F1

2 exp 2 = 4
O2a x F2b
O2b x F2a

2 exp 3 = 8
O3aa x F3bb
O3ab x F3ba
O3ba x F3ab
O3bb x F3aa

2 exp 4 = 16
O4aaa x F4bbb
O4aab x F4bba
O4aba x F4bab
O4abb x F4baa
O4baa x F4abb
O4bab x F4aba
O4bba x F4aab
O4bbb x F4aaa

2 exp 5 = 32
O5aaaa x F5bbbb
O5aaab x F5bbba
O5aaba x F5bbab
O5aabb x F5bbaa
O5abaa x F5babb
O5abab x F5baba
O5abba x F5baab
O5abbb x F5baaa
O5baaa x F5abbb
O5baab x F5abba
O5baba x F5abab
O5babb x F5abaa
O5bbaa x F5aabb
O5bbab x F5aaba
O5bbba x F5aaab
O5bbbb x F5aaaa

Edited by Otharus, 18 February 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Welcome back, Puzzler.


I understand that is an Ozzy expression, meaning receive criticism.

Funny, I had never heard that one.

Made me check it out some more:

cop from copper (policeman), who who captures - he who cops (captures) - a copper is a term for policeman here

flak
1938, from Ger. Flak, condensed from Fliegerabwehrkanone, lit. "pilot warding-off cannon." Sense of "anti-aircraft fire" is 1940; metaphoric sense of "criticism" is c.1963 in Amer.Eng.
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=flak

capture the cannon fire - lol

[Abramelin]

I have been very busy with ancient North-Frisian legends I found a 19th century online account of. It was copied with OCR (Optical Character Reading) and thus contained a multitude of errors.

The legend (or the interpretation thereof) talks about what can only be Three Goddesses (but no names), a supreme spirit called The Old One, or "Uald", and some 'lost race'.

I will be busy for some time to make it more readable (with alineas). Don't get overly excited now, it really reads like a fairy tale, but nevertheless, worth the trouble of reading in relation to the OLB. I will post it in my OLB blog because it's a lot of text I don't think will I be able to post here in one post.

++++++

EDIT:

Well, I won't let anyone wait unnecessarily long, so here it is:

http://oeralinda.blo...le-of-sylt.html

Still needs a bit of cleaning up, but it will do for now.

Many hundred years later, says
our Frisian story-teller, one would
find in most Frisian houses and on
the ships representations of the
same virtues justice as a woman,
with sword and balances; unity or
love, a woman with three babes,
one nestling in. her bosom; hope,
with one hand on her anchor and
with the other holding a bird.
These were carved on walls and
cupboards, or worked in metal.

(The predecessors of Frya, Lyda, and Finda?)

==


It is difficult to know what to
make of this strange tale. I am
inclined to think it is made up of
two or three stories of very vary-
ing dates. The oldest part prob-
ably relates to the arrival of the
Frisians from over the sea, led by
their god, who in later times was,
by euphemistic process, turned
sometimes into Uald, the Old or
Elder one, sometimes into Freso:

(Uald the Old One => Wr-Alda the Over Old One?_





.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 February 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Abramelin]

Damn, this is kind of eerie: I have been reading about Friso of the Frisian legends till my eyes popped out, and just now I learn (tv) that the son of the Dutch Queen, Prins Friso, nearly got killed in an avalanche yesterday while skiing.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

On your site I read:
"[p. 1] ADELA."

This page does not exist.

And:
"Moet zijn: TO HAPE HROPA"

I have shown you that WOPA is good Oldfrisian and fits perfectly here.

And:
"29 - ON HJA FRUCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA WR-
30 ALDAS . OD"

Conclusion: your 'corrected' transliteration is worthless.

I will not use it.


Man, when are you finally going to do your homework?

Jensma's version (2006) contains a corrected transliteration (better than yours!) with numbered lines.

You are right, but the difference is that I have taken the fixed 32 lines per page as basic. In my opinion it has been the initial goal of Cornelis over de Linden and Ernest Stadermann to have the manuscript printed (along with a translation).  They must have taken one of the first printed books (incunabulae) as an example. Else I can not explain the non linguistic cutting of words in the middle of nowhere. I have said earlier, that tne OLB pages mirror a concept for the lead-setter at a printery. If it would have been an original manuscript, it would have been composed with much more attention, now it looks like a draft. As far as I know Jensma has not seen  the manuscript as a draft for the lead-setter, but he describes the work as hastily executed.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

(Uald the Old One => Wr-Alda the Over Old One?)

Of course I should have added that:

1) "the Old One" is NOT a translation of "Uald"; like I already posted in my post abour "Reintja" (Reinout/Regnis-wald)etc):

Uald is of Germanic origin. The name Uald means 'a brave ruler'. Forms of Uald include the names Ualda, Ualdaa, Ualdae, Ualdah, Ualdai, and Ualdia.

http://www.babynames...om/meaning/Uald

2) Wr-alda, however, could be translated as "over old" or "very old", and so on.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 February 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

Sylt is an interesting island with an interesting history...

I posted about Sylt on my OLB blog, but here's more:

*Sylt was originally part of Jutland (today Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein)

*There is evidence of human habitation going back to 3000 BC at Denghoog

*First settlements of Frisians during the 8th century and 9th century

*Sylt was divided between the Duke of Schleswig and the Kingdom of Denmark in 1386

*Except for the town of List, Sylt became part of the Duchy of Schleswig in 1435

*During the 17th century and 18th century, whaling, fishing and oyster breeding increased the wealth of the population

*Keitum became the capital of the island, and a place for rich captains to settle down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylt


Denghoog is an ancient monument dating from 3000 BC near Wenningstedt-Braderup on the German Island of Sylt.

Mr. W.G. Black speaks of it thus:—

"There is some confusion as to King Finn's dwelling. As doctors differ, we may be allowed to claim that it was the Denghoog, close to Wenningstedt, if only because we descended into that remarkable dwelling. Externally merely a swelling green mound, like so many others in Sylt, entrance is gained by a trap-door in the roof, and descending a steep ladder, one finds himself in a subterranean chamber, some seventeen by ten feet in size [5.2 × 3.0 m], the walls of which are twelve huge blocks of Swedish granite;[Pg 72] the height of the roof varies from five feet to six feet [1.5–1.8 m]. The original entrance appears to have been a long narrow passage, seventeen feet [5.2 m] long and about two feet wide and high. This mound was examined by a Hamburg professor in 1868, who found remains of a fireplace, bones of a small man, some clay urns, and stone weapons. Later, a Kiel professor is said to have carried off all he found therein to Kiel Museum, and so far we have not been able to trace the published accounts of his investigations."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denghoog


I remember I once jokingly said that if Alewyn was right about the Faroer Islands possibly being the remnants of Aldland, then the "Finda", the original and only (and Mongolian/Asian looking) people on Aldland, can only have been the Inuit (or Eskimos as they were once called).

Heh, read this:

Fians, Fairies and Picts, by David MacRitchie

http://www.gutenberg...6-h/17926-h.htm
http://www.gutenberg...ges/20large.jpg

Professor Henri van Elven, the main theme of whose forthcoming work, Les Nains préhistoriques de l'Europe Occidentale, formed the subject of a paper recently read by him before the Société d'Archéologie de Bruxelles; and MM. Grandgagnage and De Reul, cited by Mr. C. Carter Blake, F.G.S., in connection with the Nutons of the Belgian bone-caves;[16] as also another writer of the Low Countries, Van den Bergh ("xxx. and 313"), whom Mr. J. Dirks quotes at p. 15 of his Heidens of Egyptiërs, Utrecht, 1850.

In Mr. W.G. Black's charming book on Heligoland,[17] one passage (p. 72) recognises that a certain Sylt tradition "is evidently one of those valuable legends which illuminate dark pages of history. It clearly bears[Pg xxii] testimony to the same small race having inhabited Friesland in times which we trace in the caves of the Neolithic age, and of which the Esquimaux are the only survivors." For many of the kindred traditions in that locality, one cannot do better than refer to Mr. Christian Jensen's Zwergsagen aus Nordfriesland, contributed to the Zeitschrift des Vereins für Volkskunde (Berlin, Heft 4, 1892).

==

A dwarf king named Fin is also remembered in[Pg 34] Frisian tradition;[38] and that he and his race were small men is pretty clearly proved by the fact that when one of the earth-houses attributed to him was opened some years ago, it was found to contain the bones of a little man.[39] Both of these dwarf Fins, Little Fin of Norway and Little Fin of Denmark, are undoubtedly real; and there seems no good reason to suppose that the dwarf Fin of Hebridean tradition was not equally real. Whether they were three separate people is a problem. "Fin" appears to have been at one time a not uncommon name, whatever its etymology and that of "Fian" may be. At any rate, there is nothing in history (which speaks of a close intercourse between Scandinavia and the British Isles, in former times), and nothing[Pg 35] in the ethnology of North-Western Europe, to make us regard as mythical the capture and enthralment of any one of these three "little Fins." If Fin of the Fians, therefore, was a typical Fian, they were little people.[40]


Dang: Finda =? Fian = Fin = .... Inuit??

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

"Fin" appears to have been at one time a not uncommon name, whatever its etymology and that of "Fian" may be.
[...]
If Fin of the Fians, therefore, was a typical Fian, they were little people.

Interesting.
Fian = vijand (enemy)

Oudnederlands Woordenboek (sorry, too lazy to translate today):

fīunt
Woordsoort: znw., m.
Modern lemma: VIJAND
Oudste attestatie: 901-1000
Frequentie: totaal: 26, appellatieven: 26
Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudfries  fiānd, fiūnd.
Morfologie: ongeleed. Oorspronkelijk het tegenwoordig deelwoord van het ww. dat overeenkomt met Ohd. fīēn, Got. fijan 'haten', dat in het Ndl. niet meer bekend is.

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=vijand