Loch Ness Monster

[Jamie]

I would like to know what you all think of the Lock Ness Monster.  I think its a cool idea that a bid dinosaur lives in the bottom of that lake, but I find it hard to believe no one could ever find it.  Is there any new proof that I dont know about?  Please let me know.

Jamie

[Homer]

I've never been interested enough to do any investigations before, but now that you mention it, is there enough food there to sustain that big of a life form?   ???   Just curious.

[Dowdy]

i believe that the loch ness is not a dinosaur but just a species we haven't discovered yet. considering that we have only discovered 1% of  all the creatures in the sea.

but a dinosaur that i believe exist is the mokele-mbembe. an alleged  living sauropod dinosaur now living in the Likouala swamp region of the Republic of Congo (Zaire). there have been less sightings of the mokele-mbembe then the loch ness but the people who claim the mokele-mbembe exists are people who don't usually die. ie. the african tribes people. there is no reason for them to lie because they don't care about media, reputation or personal satus.

[Homer]

Dowdy

I have heard of it too, but never looked into it. I found something about it recently:

In 1932, British cryptozoologist Ivan Sanderson was traveling in Africa and came across large hippo-like tracks in a region with no hippos. He was told by the natives that they were made by a creature named the "mgbulu-eM'bembe".

Perhaps the best known reports about this kind of creature came out of the Congo after the turn of the century. Captain Freiheer von Stein zu Lausnitz, a German explorer, heard stories about an animal that was "brownish gray with a smooth skin, its size approximately that of an elephant, at least that of a hippopotamus." The creature had long flexible neck and had a vegetarian diet. The natives called it mok'ele-mbembe.

As more and more of Africa was charted and explored the dinosaur tales faded away. However, in 1980, Dr. Roy Mackal, a biologist at the University of Chicago and James Powell, a herpetologist, decided to go and take another look at the source of the mok'ele-mbembe tales. As with earlier explorers they failed to see the creature themselves. However, they did interview several people who had, and also heard about a creature with a long neck and tail that was killed along Lake Tele in 1959. According to the story, anyone who ate of the creatures meat, died. Witnesses said mok'ele-mbembe was about thirty feet long. Of that, ten was head and neck, the rest body and tail. Mackal and Powell suspected that the creature was a small relative of the Apatosaurus, but gathered no proof. A second expedition the next year added nothing but some strange footprints.

James Powell, an American explorer visited the area and showed pictures of various known animals to the inhabitants which they correctly identified. When shown a picture of a sauropod dinosaur they identified it as Mokele M'Bembe the large animal living in the nearby swamps and river systems.

The idea of a living breathing dinosaurian relic from pre-history surviving and thriving in modern times may seem more than improbable at first sight, but it must be noted that the Congo Basin in Africa has remained largely unchanged and undisturbed both in geography and climate since the days of the dinosaurs. Reports of sightings continue to this day.

I know that this topic was for the Loch Ness, so I will be back with more thoughts on that ;D

Homer

[Saru]

Living just down the road from Loch Ness, this particular unexplained mystery is of particular interest to me. There have been dozens of studies into the monster, and even a very recent attempt to catch the thing by dragging a large net through the lake from one end to the other.

Despite all the sightings and photographs, there are problems with the Pleiseosaur theory. For a start, Pleiseosaurs are air breathing creatures. In order for one to survive in Loch Ness, it would have to continually resurface for air all the time. If this was the case, it would be seen every few minutes.

A large dinoaur would also need a huge amount of food to sustain itself, and Loch Ness is a very dark, cold and empty lake. There is very little fish in it at all, nowhere near enough to sustain a large prehistoric carnivore.

In addition, there would really need to be a whole lot more than one of them to have lived there all this time, and that would involve the lake being filled with hundreds of them. If that were the case, a sea of necks would be visible all the time, as they all came up for air.

Many of the photographs of the Monster, such as the famous Surgeons photograph, have been found to be fake. The surgeon himself, admitted having taken the photograph of a cardboard heard mounted on a toy submarine.

Still, there have been a lot of sightings, and it's clear that there may indeed be something in the Loch. It is not a Pleiseosaur as many believe, for the reasons stated above, but that doesn't rule out other possibilities. If there is some strange unexplained cryptid in the depths of the Loch, it is not a dinosaur. Also, the Loch was frozen solid a few thousand years ago, meaning that whatever is in the Loch, it must have got there very recently.

There's more about the Loch, as well as the Surgeon's Photograph on the web site,

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/lochness.htm

[Jamie]

Homer,

Thanks for all the info on mgbulu-eM'bembe.  I had never even heard of it.  Now Im going to have to do some reading on the subject.  

Jamie

[Jamie]

SaRuMaN,

Maybe it is a huge snake or something.  Who knows.  Has anyone tried scuba diving in the lake and looking around?  It must be really cool living so close to Loch Ness.    Do you have a lot of tourists around there looking for the Loch Ness Monster?

Jamie

[Saru]

Jamie,

Our area is always inundated with tourists, people flock here from all over the world, especially in summer. Urquart castle and Drumnadrochet are always popular Loch side attractions. You can't drive alongside Loch Ness without seeing tourists, no matter what time of the year it is. Everyone wants to see a glimpse of the famous monster, and bring home a couple of Nessie souvenirs.

There have been all sorts of attempts to acquire conclusive evidence of the creature. People from various countries have funded projects to attempt to photograph the creature underwater using all sorts of high tech equipment. Nowadays, there is a submarine that tourists can even go down in, and boat trips etc.

People have scuba dived in the Loch, and some have even swam across the entire length of it. Mostly tourists don't see much of the monster, most of the reports come from locals and people who go to the Loch every day. Still, anyone who does visit, doesn't hesitate to look out across the waters of the lake, and hope that they may catch a glimpse of the Loch Ness legend.

[Homer]

Im going to have to agree with SaRuMaN

Loch Ness is about 23 sq. miles and plunges to a depth of about 250m(750 feet), and the crushing pressure and pitch black waters has made investigation by diving more or less impossible. Some submarines have also aided in the investigation, but failed to locate comprehensive proof of a large creature.

But, what if...the water being so deep and dark, accompanied with the various caves at the bottom of the lake, that COULD provide air pockets, food supply, underground tunnels leading to other lakes/rivers. There COULD even be a whole network of caves/tunnels leading all over various parts of the underworld.

It probably is not likely, but fascinating to think about

Homer

[Magikman]

 For anyone who is interested, here is a link to the web-site that shows real-time pictures of Loch Ness via 4 or 5 strategically located camaras located around the loch;

http://www.lochness.scotland.net/index.cfm

 Remember, depending on where you are located, ie; if you are in the Eastern time zone in America, you will be 5 hours behind the actual time in Scotland. So unless you want to see darkness, you have to go to the website early in the day in order to catch a glimpse of the LOCH NESS MONSTER! Or atleast some cute babes out sun-bathing(pant..pant..)

Magikman

[Jamie]

Homer,

Thats an interesting analogy.  Thats something to really think about.  There could be all kinds of undescovered things under there is thats not true.  Maybe a whole colony of Loch Ness Monsters.  

Magikman,

I just took a look at that site.  It wont let me veiw under water right now.  I looked at the other webcam though.  Wow Loch Ness is beautiful!!!  I think my next vacation will be to Scotland.

Jamie

[Magikman]

Dowdy,

  Since you seem to be a good one for wanting to know where people get their facts, I'd like to know where it was you heard or read about only 1% of sea or aquatic creatures being discovered? If 10,000 creatures(a conservative number I must admit) have already been 'discovered', that would mean there's still 1,000,000 different creatures still undiscovered! Quite an unbelievable number even given the vastness of our ocean's, don't you think? Overfishing and pollution has already greatly diminished the once abundant availability of fish, leading to the extinction of many species. Exploration of the ocean's for any available food source has been going on for quite awhile now, but I think the discovery of new species probably number in the hundreds, if that. Yes, we are still limited when it comes to deep sea exploration, but I think it would be quite a stretch to believe there are that many more new species to be discovered at such great depth's.

 As to the mokele-membe in Africa. I don't know if you are familiar with the Fortean Times magazine, but there happens to be an interesting article in the May issue about this creature. There are several things to consider regarding the 'reliability' of its existance;

The area is remote and highly inaccesible, limiting the exposure of modern man and his technology to people who inhabit the region. While it could be argued that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, the local tribes still live their lives rather primatively. They still practice witchcraft and retain much of their old ways of thinking. They are highly superstitious and worship many different gods. A good way for any tribal chief to keep his people in line would be through fear and intimidation, and tales about the mokele-mbembe is a good example. Being primative doesn't automatically exempt them from lying, its a natural human condition. It wouldn't be too hard to believe someone exaggerating or fabricating a story of some fantastic creature, especially to a stranger.

 Expeditions require money from grants or some interested party, and are only regarded as sucessful if there are any tangible results. Coming back empty handed is self-defeating. Homer posted a story about several of these expeditions, but the report failed to mention that the Powell group got radically different identifications of the mokele-mbembe from different tribes, effectively rendering any 'positive' identification moot. He did make one good point though, the idea of a living dinosaur is implausable at best.

 As an afterthought, while members here may not agree on every issue, we have pretty much been able to conduct ourselves in a mature manner. The "you are gay, for no particular reason" remark in your signature block is somewhat childish and offensive, don't you think....or don't you, think? >

Magikman

[Saru]

I agree that there is such potential in the oceans for new undiscovered species of animal. Although lake monsters are quite questionnable, sea monsters are not quite so easy to dismiss, generally because there is almost no way whatsoever of disproving their existence.

The Giant Squid is a good example of a "sea monster" - featured even in films as a massive tentacled creature floating through the depths. Once , the Giant Squid was nothing more than a myth, until an actual carcass was washed up on a beach. The Caelacanth is another example of a mystery of the ocean, thought to have been extinct from before the time of the dinosaurs. There have been thousands of reports and legends regarding sea creatures, such as Giant Octopus, which is no longer such an inplausable thing now that the existence of the Giant Squid has been proven.

Many of the strange creatures that live in the sea's depths far outsize those that we know of today. One of the largest Giant Squid ever recorded, was found washed up on a beach in 1878. With a 20ft long body, and 35ft long tentacles of 18 inches across, it's suckers were huge, at a massive 4 inches diameter each.

However, naturalist Ivan Sanderson discovered that something rather larger had attacked a whale many years back. After examination of the whale in question, it was concluded that the whale did indeed display sucker marks from a giant squid, each of them over 18 inches across. The size of the creature responsible is almost incomprehendable. The gigantic monsters of myth and legend, have been conclusively proven as real live creatures of the deep.

[Jamie]

SaRuMaN,

It looks like a very beautiful place to live.  I will probably be one of those tourists trying to spot Nessie one of these days.

Jamie

[Saru]

Jamie,

Scotland is a very beautiful country, and I fully recommend a visit. Loch Ness in particular is a perfect tourist destination, and is a very good place to come to view the scenery, and experience the Scottish atmosphere first hand.

Who knows, you may even be able to photograph the monster - if your quick.  

[Jamie]

I agree with you all about there being many undescovered things in the water.  The giant squid is a great example.

And what about the coelacanth.  No one even knew they were still alive till one was caught off the coast of Madagascar.  They have been around for millions of years.  

Its hard to say what does or doesnt exist in our waters.  They are too big too explore every inch of them.

Jamie

[Jamie]

SaRuMaN,

Im a speedy little devil.  Ill get a picture of the monster.  HeHe ;D

Jamie

[Dowdy]

if everyone is wondering where i got the info about the 1% of discovered sea creatures, i got it from 60 minutes in australia and i read it somewhere aswell(but i forgot which book). i agree with this aswell because the sea is so deep and vast, who know what might lurk under there.

[Magikman]

  I copied this from a bio-diversity website developed by Middlesex College in England:

Number of Species by Taxonomic Group

Group                     Identified   Estimated    

                          Species   Total Species

Bacteria and viruses        5800         10,000(?)

Invertebrates            1,500,000 7 to 50,000,000  

Amphibians and reptiles    12,000        13,000

Fish                       20,000        23,000

Birds                       9100          9200

Mammals                     4200          4300

Vascular Plants           250,000       300,000

Nonvascular Plants        150,000       200,000

 Not sure where the Australian 60 minutes crew got their figures from, but obviously they were way wrong. Actually, a little less than 90% of all fish species have been discovered.

 Dowdy, isn't it a bit hypocritical to state that the ocean is so vast and deep that we can't know for sure what can be found, yet argue that God doesn't exist? Maybe he resides within the deepest part of the ocean and thats why there's no evidence. Do you get my point?

Magikman

[Dowdy]

Magikman,

        i do not consider myself hypocritical because i was talking about animals which live in our own dimension, not "spritual entities".

[Saru]

Back to the Loch Ness monster, and the latest expedition to locate the monster has ended in disappointment, with absolutely nothing in the way of results. Swedish monster hunter Sundberg and his team spent 50 hours sweeping the Loch with the latest sonar technology, and found nothing at all. They even set a massive lobster-style trap for the creature, which came up empty.

Sundberg denied that the alleged protective spell cast over the Loch by witch Kevin Carlyon, was responsible for the lack of findings.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,13-125270,00.html

[SpaceyKC]

Meanwhile, ole Nessie's just laying back laughing her head off at all those silly humans and their expensive machines!! That's why she's lasted all these years!!!

[Magikman]

Dowdy,

  You misunderstood my point. Your willingness to accept the existence of something based on "assumptions" is no more credible than somebody’s "faith" in the existence of a spiritual being.  Neither one is supported by concrete scientific evidence, only theoretical probabilities. Therein lies the hypocrisy.

  While Adam's opinion is somewhat flawed and he tends to be overly confrontational, try to remember that he is only 13. We cannot know for sure if he will maintain the strength of his convictions as he matures and experiences the 'reality' of life.

My hope is that he does, as he could do much worse without the moral compass and direction christianity seems to give him.

Magikman

[SpaceyKC]

I was watching a program yesterday about sightings of large, snake-like creatures in America.  I found the show when it was almost over, so forgive the partial information, cause it was still intriguing.  In the Altamaha River(I don't know the state, but there are alligators), there have been recent sightings of a creature that even came close to attacking some swimmers.  The witnesses are natives to the area, so they know the difference between gators and this 'monster'.  They say it has a long tail that spreads out at the end, and a long neck.  There are at least 20 witnesses who have been interviewed, and on the program, a marine biologist said the river is very deep in places, and it is possible something BIG could hide there.  He stated, for example, the giant squid, which we didn't know about until we found some dead bodies.  Does anyone know about this river, or can find complete information for me?  Thanks, Nora

[Magikman]

Nora,

  The Altamaha River is located in Georgia. A search will turn up a few websites, here's one that goes into details of some of the reported sightings;

http://www.gabooks.com/sighting.htm

  There are no photographs of the 'creature', but it does show a couple sketches from eye-witnesses.

  It seems just about any large body of water located anywhere(there are a couple here in Wisconsin) are inhabited by some sort of strange creature. Some have their origins begun by Native American Indians and are perpetuated by 'sightings' from local inhabitants. One has to wonder if these are just attempts to enhance the legend and make the area more palatable to 'tourists', or if there is any substance to the many claims of strange creatures. Some of these creatures are already several hundred years old, which in of itself is pretty incredible.

Magikman