22 replies to this topic

[seax]

Triad on Apr 9 2009, 02:31 AM, said:

Government I feel, can create the conditions which allow for the creation of jobs, examples abound. Release of classified technology to the private sector, moving military bases, generating growth through government funded programs, meant for infrastructure and so on. I can agree though that in relation to how folk are getting along (you know the ones with the black credit cards) can and does get out of hand. It is after all human nature to want more. There is nothing wrong with saying, "Hey what just happened should be illegal." In a manner of speaking the whole things is stupid, what I mean to say is that if something does not make sense it is probably a lie.

We need recourses not excuses and the reality is, that between the orbit of Mars and Jupiter there is enough Platinum to put a rings around planet Earth and make it look like Saturn. Here is the thing it is there and we do not count it?? No one else is actually claiming it and honestly the closest thing to us, in this solar system may be some fish.

seax..In Mexico they celebrate the Day of the Dead. Such an event is not a part of Christian society but rather an influence of the prior culture. There are certain things that the Masses when confronted with the need for change do not allow to be extinguished. At certain times in history this was a factor, when addressing the needs of a much larger population certain fundamental ideas are changed.

Any thoughts?

I agree completely and am glad you brought it up concerning governments role in research and developement.  I failed to mention that in my previous post and a good example is satellites.  Every night when we watch Cable or Dish Network it is a product of taxpayers money turned over to the private sector thus creating a new industry (jobs).  Many entities in the private sector would not have the funding to develop the technology.  

No doubt in my mind mountains of resources are literally at our fingertips in space and perhaps on the moon.  Hopefully, when we figure out how to efficiently and safely travel to move personel and resources there we will achieve a vast treasure trove of wealth.  You know someone told me one time...everyone is talking about energy and the lack of...it's further from the truth.. the whole universe is made up of energy..how can it be in short supply...what is in short supply is the drive to utililize it and to tell the truth....the same applies for resources.  

There has been a blending of cultures even in Christianity.  Christianity is nothing more than a blend with pagan customs.  Multicuturalism is definitely a factor and should respected and understood by everyone in the process of capitalism and a more worldly economy.  I think it can be achieved and satisified with the right attitudes and understanding  to work to everyones needs.

Hope I make any sense...sometimes I tend to ramble.

best regards,
seax

[Virtual Particle]

seax on Apr 8 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

I agree completely and am glad you brought it up concerning governments role in research and developement.  I failed to mention that in my previous post and a good example is satellites.  Every night when we watch Cable or Dish Network it is a product of taxpayers money turned over to the private sector thus creating a new industry (jobs).  Many entities in the private sector would not have the funding to develop the technology.  

No doubt in my mind mountains of resources are literally at our fingertips in space and perhaps on the moon.  Hopefully, when we figure out how to efficiently and safely travel to move personel and resources there we will achieve a vast treasure trove of wealth.  You know someone told me one time...everyone is talking about energy and the lack of...it's further from the truth.. the whole universe is made up of energy..how can it be in short supply...what is in short supply is the drive to utililize it and to tell the truth....the same applies for resources.  

There has been a blending of cultures even in Christianity.  Christianity is nothing more than a blend with pagan customs.  Multicuturalism is definitely a factor and should respected and understood by everyone in the process of capitalism and a more worldly economy.  I think it can be achieved and satisified with the right attitudes and understanding  to work to everyones needs.

Hope I make any sense...sometimes I tend to ramble.

best regards,
seax

You seem right on target...On the moon is a whole lot of Helium 3, if you wanted the ideal substance to generate fusion reaction that would be it. It has accumulated over the years as a result of natural processes and this suggest that we will find the same thing on many such object which have no atmosphere. On earth Helium 3 accumulates but not to the extent we will find on the moon or similar. Clearly we need a means of access before we can claim rights legal and otherwise but we can count it amounts our pluses when looking at the whole picture.

As far as I know even if, we converted the car industry today so that they only used plastics and porcelain (for the engines and transmission). There would be enough oil to last 300 years (it probably more like 500 years but 300 is a good number. What we do not have are mineral recourses, in fact there is a whole type of rock that we extract iron ore from that no longer exist. Russia and China tested there nuclear weapons in there mountain ranges and as a result, some large percentage of there mineral wealth, will not be useable for another 10,000 years.

Any thoughts?

[seax]

Triad on Apr 9 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

You seem right on target...On the moon is a whole lot of Helium 3, if you wanted the ideal substance to generate fusion reaction that would be it. It has accumulated over the years as a result of natural processes and this suggest that we will find the same thing on many such object which have no atmosphere. On earth Helium 3 accumulates but not to the extent we will find on the moon or similar. Clearly we need a means of access before we can claim rights legal and otherwise but we can count it amounts our pluses when looking at the whole picture.

As far as I know even if, we converted the car industry today so that they only used plastics and porcelain (for the engines and transmission). There would be enough oil to last 300 years (it probably more like 500 years but 300 is a good number. What we do not have are mineral recourses, in fact there is a whole type of rock that we extract iron ore from that no longer exist. Russia and China tested there nuclear weapons in there mountain ranges and as a result, some large percentage of there mineral wealth, will not be useable for another 10,000 years.

Any thoughts?

There will most certainly be a wealth of resources on the moon.  In fact, I could see at some point in time the moon becoming a manufacturing haven for the Earth.  Once certain obstacles are overtaken and capitalism gets in the mix with the technology the government funded with taxpayers money it is feasible we get a good return on our investments by perhaps as you said another energy source.  The possibilities are endless.

seax

[Virtual Particle]

seax on Apr 9 2009, 12:04 AM, said:

There will most certainly be a wealth of resources on the moon.  In fact, I could see at some point in time the moon becoming a manufacturing haven for the Earth.  Once certain obstacles are overtaken and capitalism gets in the mix with the technology the government funded with taxpayers money it is feasible we get a good return on our investments by perhaps as you said another energy source.  The possibilities are endless.

seax

One side of Mercury is cold the other is so hot we could extract energy from it to generate power and there is also what Mercury is made of that is also important. For as long as Mercury is around it has an inexhaustible power source. Mars is red because of Iron Oxides and there is more water in orbit about Saturn (the rings) than there is water on Earth. There are other wonders like the Red Spot; it like similar storms has a vortex where conditions are relatively calm. One could fit the Earth inside this vortex and it is possible that the vortex reaches down to the surface.


In 2000 years we will have a population somewhere around 26 billion, how many generations are that?

Any thoughts?

Edited by Triad, 09 April 2009 - 04:53 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Triad , i like your optimism in regard to resources(and i agree with it) but i think it is the changes we cant forsee which will be the greatest. Energy will replace physical resources as the next big requirement for humanity. We will use force/energy fields for many things we use resources for now. We will probably use a lot more energy manipulating and transforming materiial and when we learn to transmit matter that wil also use a lot of energy. Fortunately, i think we will find /develop the energy sources as we need them.

I disagree with your population estimates (unless we move off world which is likely but not for a couple of centuries yet.). Our society is less human dependent, children are a huge net cost to families and societies and there are many other reasons for a falling fertility. Amrica is about the only western country which has a birthrate high enough tot replace its pop.

Actually a quick google reveals its birth rate is now 2.1 or also below replacement level)

Every woman must have 2.2 kids to maintain a population. At present australia is about 1.8  jaoan is much lower. Almost all of western europe is below replace ment level. By 20 50 the worlds pop will stop increasiong. After that it will start to fall quite quickly.In almost every western country, govts will be forced to allow in large numbers of migrants from less developed countries simply to retain a vialble economy

Things might happen to change this, but until we can truly colonise space, creating both a new frontier and possibly a new pioneering spirit, i doubt that birth rates will naturally increase. The richer societies and individuals become, the fewer children they have. There are many reasons for this and the theory behind it is well explained in transition theory which explains the population explosion of the last 200 years, and the reasons for pop decline.
In the 2000's, or at least the first few centuries of them, the earths total population is most likely to decline rapidly,or at least steadily, while our individual environmental footprints continue to increase
If we successfully colonise space/other planets and gain access to their resources then we might develop a much greater pop, but the earth by itself simply could not sustain 26 billion people. it cand indefinitely sustain the pop we have now , and our resource and energy use per capita will increase exponentially in the next millenia.


ps Any resource is only viable if it can be accessed at less cost than it is worth, so if it costs 3 bars of platinum to access one bar, it is not viable to mine it.

This means that even many resources on earth are not currently viable or economic let alone those in space. At present the cost of escaping the earths gravity well makes accessing them prohibitively expensive., although this could be overcome with space based operations if enough use could be found for the resources.

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 April 2009 - 01:30 PM.

[Virtual Particle]

I Goggled "birth rates and planet earth" those were amongst the top three results. More people are born than die and that is consistent through-out history at present there are 6.7 billion people on earth. A rate of increase of 108 million per year would not be unreasonable, but, multiply that over 1000 or 2000 years and it makes a difference. I understand how you feel Mr. Walker perhaps it is a matter of location....I for one consider this information to be reasonable as when one takes into consideration the world as a whole at present. Women are having more than two children per in third world countries and in order to present them with a 1st world lifestyle we need more recourses (as we have used up some percentage of it). In the meantime they will continue to meet there needs based upon what is currently available. Now as far as occupying our solar system that will take a considerable amount of time. Our next mission to the Moon is in 10 years or so, Mars perhaps by 2050. To go from that, to a society which basically has stretched out into the solar system, on the scale of perhaps a billion or so individuals actively off the planet Earth is a completely different story. At the very longest it could take about 1500 years, at the very least about 700 years this being if we applied ourselves. It is possible that it could take less time and specifically, one has to give credit to human ingenuity. The first problem to address today is, we simply do not trust each other enough to say hand another access to a vessel whose power source could be used to destroy a city (And many will disagree with the purpose of such technology). As you are aware an increase of 108 billion per year is an addition of 1 billion per decade. There in fact is no such thing as a world census so these amounts are equally as arbitrary. Again, when it comes to 6.7 billion at present and the best results fall under the apices of a statistical analysis we are really discussing a deviation from a mean.


One in which, in my opinion, is better to be cautious.....

When it comes to prices there my tendency is to treat such an issue with a certain degree of contempt. Today if a person or a country for that matter, decided to make one tablespoon of anti-matter it would cost the entire GNP of the United States of America to produce it. If we were to perfect the Alcubierre Warp Drive it would take one tablespoon of anti-matter to make the trip to the nearest earth like star and return. If in fact our survival depends upon our ability to overcome these obstacles (and it is possible) then to suggest money is a problem, well I feel that if it is, then invalidating that argument will occur one way or another. Keep in mind I am not suggesting we cannot do anything about this and in fact there is enough time. There just isn’t plenty of time.

Any thoughts?

[Mr Walker]

You must be reading different data to mine on pop.   Admittedly the trends are changing very rapidly and you need to look at ones rom the last few years. There are many sites which give extremely accurate details of both populations, and of birth/death rates, including those from united nations organisations.

Because we have a huge world pop  it is true that even a small fertility level will mean large numerical increase, but by 20 50 the worlds fertility will fall below replacement level. (already israel is the only developed country in the world with an above replacement level of fertility) Soon after that world pop wil inevitably decline as deaths surpass births. I agree, nothing is certain in the future, but all present trends and predictions show this, with some variability in the timing and scale of the decrease.

I agree with most of your other points, but a cople of asides .

Columbus reached america without using any gasoline. I am not sure what energy source will power the future , just that we will find it as required( i too admire human ingenuity) I think you are too pessimistic in your timeline for human expansion. One only has to look at history to see how exponentially rapid human transport/communication has developed. It took columbus months to find america and a  year for the second voyage to return. Its  effective  colonisation  by europeans took decades, if not a century, despite early spanish settlements in new spain. Now communication is virtually instant and travel from america to europe measured in hours.

Thus i expect humans to be out anong the stars in perhaps a quarter of the time you potsulate. Despite its very slow initial build up for example it has only taken  about 500 years from a very low technology base for the time taken to travel from europe to america to drop from months to virtually minutes(next generation of aircraft included)

At the moment we are like the europeans of that time trying to envisage the colonisation of america using the technology available in their time, when actually technology will continue to develop (probably exponentially) completely changing that perspective as it does so

The virtual immortality of  individual members of mankind, which is coming in the next  decade or two will also alter our perspectives on interstellar travel, even if we remain limited to sublight speeds, which i doubt.

Edited by Mr Walker, 10 April 2009 - 03:55 AM.

[Virtual Particle]

If one were to actually discuss what life is today, with a person born 140 years ago? Depending upon there temperament one could actually be shot for being so ignorant. In the 90's a group went into deepest Africa and presented them with a Video tape. These indigenous people understood about VCR's and cars as well as cell phones; they were shown a "National Geographic’s" style documentary which presented life in the United States of America. The traffic jams, the industry, the military and stuff like Starbucks. Despite the fact this culture had a rudimentary understanding of the potential of human technology (as described). They were offended because they felt that what the documentary presented was a fantasy. They felt there was no way mankind had reached this level of organization and they actually threatened those who made the presentation. They made clear to them that if they felt it necessary to continue such discussions they were more than welcome to leave, to them (this indigenous culture), they felt those presenting the Video were trying to make fools of them.

My great, great, great, great Grandfather (a Taino Indian) fought under General Andrew Jackson (not necessarily related to the President of the same name). Who was assigned the task of delivering the State of Florida to the United States (this would have been about the 1820's). The 1820s was also the time when the terms Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 became valid issues (in actuality I happen to know allot about the 1820s).  

Please understand one can, at least from a position of caution, suggest that we have in fact reached the End of Days in which, we have the option of playing around anymore with our existence as a species.

Any thoughts?


PS: don’t feel bad as a matter of fact most members of Indigenous cultures are pessimistic about this issue.