628 replies to this topic

[Arbitran]

Arbenol68, on 25 June 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you can consider to be a 'mainstream' christian. There are so many different beliefs within it that's it hard to keep track on who believes what. It's certainly true to say that fundamentalist christian belief is that the Bible is inerrant. This is a position that is clearly untenable in light of the convergence of scientific understanding.

Mainstream would probably constitute a majority; or roughly so. Just to clarify.

[pbarosso]

yes i dont know many christians who subscribe to any majority idea. as a catholic, i dont feel that i have to subscribe to any creation theory as it is not important anyway and dont care if any majority group believes about some asteroid or dinosaurs being millions of years old, its pretty clear, earth has been here for billions of years. some christians shoul adopt this idea, but hey who cares? why would anyone get caught up in someone elses beliefs anyway? unless it is knock him down a notch or to prosetylize some point of view.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

Just a gentle reminder....

'Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. We must also ask that members do not use the forums to promote or 'preach' their personal spiritual beliefs to others.

[Arbitran]

Daughter of the Nine Moons, on 26 June 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Just a gentle reminder....

'Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. We must also ask that members do not use the forums to promote or 'preach' their personal spiritual beliefs to others.

Well-noted. Thank you.

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Again, it isn't really a sacrifice unless it's permanent. Christians believe that Jesus died to redeem our sins and save us from hell; well, a real sacrifice towards that end (putting aside the fact that the mitzvot clearly preclude such a thing) would be very simple: have Jesus sent to hell for all eternity, like is supposed to happen to us. Going to hell, allegedly, for about a day and a half, like he did, is not a sacrifice in this instance, if indeed he is meant to have been resurrected and ascend to heaven forever.

And the way one determines what the "standard" views of Christianity is to look at all of the denominations, and find which ideologic points are shared been all or the majority of them. I don't exclude other groups from being capable of making mistakes (I said so specifically in my previous post, in case you didn't notice); but that does not mean that, when faced with Christians, I will ignore the problem, simply because there are others in the world.

Of course you don't know the "Christians" I'm talking about; nobody apart from non-Christians really do, because from my experience, Christians don't want to admit that they do these things. Everyone can see what Christians do; it's not exclusive either (as you said, Muslims are often oblivious to their own problems as well).

Of course I know that the idea of Aslan is supposedly based on Jesus, which is a reasonable assessment; what I asked is, apart from the resurrection element, what else do they have in common? And how does either sculpt or influence you/Christians? The teachings of Jesus were fine, but there are better, and some of his are outright wrong (he had a particularly poor grasp on seeds; he thought the mustard seed was the smallest of seeds, and that a seed has to die to germinate?).

And, again (I've already explained this; you don't seem to have noticed), the virtue of soldiers sacrificing themselves in war is a wholly subjective, relative concept. What's virtuous to one culture might be horrific in another. The Nazi soldiers who gave their lives to defend the Reich were virtuous in the framework of their own civilization; to most others though, they were some of history's most heinous criminals. It's all a matter of perspective; and one which I'd rather not elaborate upon any further, lest I digress.

And yes, I will point out when you use an ad hominem; I'm not against pointing that sort of thing out if it crops up. Part of why I am now convinced that you, as with many of the other Christians here (you just happen to be playing right into my view of Christianity; your actions are fully expected by what I have observed), do not actually read my posts: you continue to say that my views are "baseless" or that I'm "broad-brushing", despite the fact that I have fully explained both of these points before.

I give reasons for my statements each time; and the only cause for me to "broad-brush" Christians would be to simply note that their behavior seems to be rather evenly-distributed among them. I base my statements on my own observations of Christians, and my own study into the Bible; it helps too that I was a Christian myself for more than forty years. My views are far from "baseless"; quite the contrary, they are based on experience and collective observation. In order to reverse or disprove my statements, you would simply have to demonstrate that my views are mistaken, and that Christians do not behave in the ways I claim; unfortunately for that end, you seem to be doing a wonderful job of acting perfectly in accord with what I would have predicted.

Yes, let's not talk about Nazis here because that was completely out of orbit.

The essence of sacrifice is interesting yet you manufactured my language for me and claimed I referred to sacrifice as a virtue.

The other little points you've been making aren't representative of "the Christian ideology" so you're bringing it up but you're not even talking about it.  And as I've said, you admit other groups make mistakes but focus on Christians anyway.  But the mud you're throwing is not important to Christian faith or Christian acts so if you find that Christians are ignoring you that's understandable.

You haven't begun to explain how Aslan is so disparate from Jesus.  Until such time, your claim is technically baseless.  I've already answered your question "apart from the resurrection element".   Is Aslan more than just resurrected in the stories?  There is the suppositional Christ!  You might want to read what you like to talk about too, former Christian.

You made an unsubstantiated claim about Aslan and that's the only context in which I've used the word "baseless" here with you, so don't blow my meaning into so much more that isn't even there.  You feign so much injury over nothing or next to nothing when it comes to Christianity and I'm glad you think I'm representative of the Christian "behavior" you detest.  It's a sign that something meaningful and productive might come out of this.

Edited by Yamato, 26 June 2012 - 03:15 AM.

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Again, a sub-standard Christian view. If solely for the reason that the Bible's creation myth is in absolute contradiction to the history of the world as we now know it; Genesis holds that all land animals were created in the sixth day by God. Science is in direct opposition to such a view: unless you're saying that by "create" it meant evolved, and by "day" it meant 300 million years, and by "God" it meant natural processes. If it said that, maybe Christianity would be compatible with science.

A sub standard Christian view?   LOL No, that's not even "a Christian view".   That was the theoretical scientific view.

What's a day to eternity?   According to my Calculus, it approaches zero.  A day is much too liberal, though perhaps more believable to an ancient mind.   That's my "Christian view"; sorry if my mathematics offended you.

[Arbitran]

Yamato, on 26 June 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Yes, let's not talk about Nazis here because that was completely out of orbit.

The essence of sacrifice is interesting yet you manufactured my language for me and claimed I referred to sacrifice as a virtue.

The other little points you've been making aren't representative of "the Christian ideology" so you're bringing it up but you're not even talking about it.  And as I've said, you admit other groups make mistakes but focus on Christians anyway.  But the mud you're throwing is not important to Christian faith or Christian acts so if you find that Christians are ignoring you that's understandable.

You haven't begun to explain how Aslan is so disparate from Jesus.  Until such time, your claim is technically baseless.  I've already answered your question "apart from the resurrection element".   Is Aslan more than just resurrected in the stories?  There is the suppositional Christ!  You might want to read what you like to talk about too, former Christian.

You made an unsubstantiated claim about Aslan and that's the only context in which I've used the word "baseless" here with you, so don't blow my meaning into so much more that isn't even there.  You feign so much injury over nothing or next to nothing when it comes to Christianity and I'm glad you think I'm representative of the Christian "behavior" you detest.  It's a sign that something meaningful and productive might come out of this.

Um... you're the one who brought up being "sculpted" by Aslan. I just asked you how, exactly. I didn't make a claim about Aslan, other than to question yours.

And, yes, I have been writing about Christian theology, and the objectively determinable effects it has; and again, your denial of it is perfectly predictable. That your particular sect might not agree with everything I've noted is irrelevant. I refer to majority.

[Arbitran]

Yamato, on 26 June 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

A sub standard Christian view?   LOL No, that's not even "a Christian view".   That was the theoretical scientific view.

What's a day to eternity?   According to my Calculus, it approaches zero.  A day is much too liberal, though perhaps more believable to an ancient mind.   That's my "Christian view"; sorry if my mathematics offended you.

Please speak more clearly.

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 26 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Um... you're the one who brought up being "sculpted" by Aslan. I just asked you how, exactly. I didn't make a claim about Aslan, other than to question yours.

And, yes, I have been writing about Christian theology, and the objectively determinable effects it has; and again, your denial of it is perfectly predictable. That your particular sect might not agree with everything I've noted is irrelevant. I refer to majority.

You claimed Aslan was disparate.  I still have no idea how.  And I explained to you how Aslan sculpted me.  It's an influential story that impresses values upon children and adults and why shouldn't it?   If that's suddenly not relevant to your "majority" then you shouldn't have brought it up as another booger point.  Perhaps a giant lion from another world is my Christian dinosaur.

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 26 June 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Please speak more clearly.

Anything over infinity equals zero.

[Arbitran]

Yamato, on 26 June 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Anything over infinity equals zero.

Um... there isn't anything over infinity. Infinity isn't a number; by definition it never comes to an end, and therefore nothing is beyond it. This is pretty simple stuff.

[Arbitran]

Yamato, on 26 June 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

You claimed Aslan was disparate.  I still have no idea how.  And I explained to you how Aslan sculpted me.  It's an influential story that impresses values upon children and adults and why shouldn't it?   If that's suddenly not relevant to your "majority" then you shouldn't have brought it up as another booger point.  Perhaps a giant lion from another world is my Christian dinosaur.

Again, please speak more clearly. These sentences, in this order, are rather disjointed.

I would like to ask, by the way, what values, precisely, the Chronicles of Narnia impress upon people?

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 26 June 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Um... there isn't anything over infinity. Infinity isn't a number; by definition it never comes to an end, and therefore nothing is beyond it. This is pretty simple stuff.

Infinity is a common number in mathematics and a powerful concept in religion.  I can put six (days) or 4.5 billion (years) over infinity and come out zero either way.   That's far more relevant to my belief than all your problems based on something's "exact text".

[Arbitran]

Yamato, on 26 June 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Infinity is a common number in mathematics and a powerful concept in religion.  I can put six (days) or 4.5 billion (years) over infinity and come out zero either way.   That's far more relevant to my belief than all your problems based on something's "exact text".

Infinity isn't a number. It is a mathematical concept, but it is not technically an integer.

[Yamato]

Arbitran, on 26 June 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

Again, please speak more clearly. These sentences, in this order, are rather disjointed.

I would like to ask, by the way, what values, precisely, the Chronicles of Narnia impress upon people?

This is the same question repackaged in new rhetoric.  I've already answered it.  How can you possibly not understand my answer?   I will add love and forgiveness to what else you're pretending deaf to.