254 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

SlimJim22, on 10 May 2010 - 09:11 AM, said:

Some more links of relevance to the topic.

http://soundofallthi...-great-pyramind

http://www.tokenrock...le/article/139/

http://www.highdeser...&_Pyramids.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick

Hope you find some points of discussion within. I will get back to you.

I just read them, they were very interesting, thanks for adding them, the 2nd one was very detailed about the acoustics. The chanting sounded logical enough and may even be where it originated, the whole chamber music thing, is the Great Pyramid chamber the first place they sang chamber music? lol Possibly. It reminds me of some things discussed in the Cygnus topic. It also reminded me of the lyre of Apollo, given to him by the young Hermes. As far as I know that is the first instrument seemingly mentioned by the Greeks. It would be interesting to see if the sounds from an ancient lyre had some connection anywhere. It may hold the code.

[kmt_sesh]

cladking, on 10 May 2010 - 05:33 AM, said:

You give up too easy.

Allen's translations don't agreee with those which have come before.

While some of this could be caused by new knowledge it's very improb-
able that much of it is since past agreement was excellent.  It's dif-
ficult to even compare the works since Allen dumped the numbering
system that was in use for one that is unique to his own "translation".
This entire work appears generally distinct and unique.  

If you want to study the PT you might be well advised to use any of
the older versions;

http://web.archive.o...y/pyt/pyt06.htm

http://www.pyramidte...ranslation.html

Also there's Sethe.

Sethe's is one of the very earliest translations. Considerably outdated now but cutting-edge for his time. Mercer's is more or less a carbon copy of Sethe's work, from which Mercer translated Sethe's from German into English. Faulkner's is quite a bit better than either Sethe or Mercer but also somewhat outdated now.

Allen's is the most comprehensive and complete to date. It is also the most accurate. Considering you do not know the ancient language or religion, you're not really in a position to critique any of these translations. Please, I beg of you, don't tell us you can discern which version of translations is closest to the hieroglyphs themselves, when you don't know how to translate the hieroglyphs (that is, the original language).

That said, Allen's numbering system is rather problematic to those who are used to the old standard system. The problem is, the old standard system presented the spells in a jumbled and incoherent order. Allen's numbering system happens to be the most reliable of any yet printed because, to date, his is the only system that presents the spells in the order in which the Egyptians themselves intended them to be.

Reading Allen's from beginning to end as opposed to Mercer's or Faulkner's, it's no wonder the spells make so much more sense in Allen's translations. They're in the proper order. The back of Allen's book contains very detailed charts for referencing the numbering system of older translations, so with a little work you can locate any given spell provided by Sethe or Faulkner and find the same in Allen's. Additionally, Allen provides translations for all of the Pyramid Texts that have been uncovered by this point in time, so you can compare the differences in the Texts as they appear in the pyramids of Unis, Teti, Pepi I, and the others. Past translations were mostly incomplete.

[cladking]

kmt_sesh, on 10 May 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

Allen's is the most comprehensive and complete to date. It is also the most accurate. Considering you do not know the ancient language or religion, you're not really in a position to critique any of these translations. Please, I beg of you, don't tell us you can discern which version of translations is closest to the hieroglyphs themselves, when you don't know how to translate the hieroglyphs (that is, the original language).

It's actually quite apparent that Allen was influenced by the coffin
texts and even the book of the dead in his translations.  He speaks of
many concepts that don't arise for hundreds and even thousands of years
after the Pyramid Texts were first written.

This is another form of assuming the conclusion.  

When it appeaers that I'm commenting on the heiroglyphs it will usually
actually be a comment on the consistency of the translation or the accur-
acy as judged by how true it is to the concept of water.  In very few cases
have I actually looked at the hieroglyphs and seen glaring errors.  

Quote

That said, Allen's numbering system is rather problematic to those who are used to the old standard system. The problem is, the old standard system presented the spells in a jumbled and incoherent order. Allen's numbering system happens to be the most reliable of any yet printed because, to date, his is the only system that presents the spells in the order in which the Egyptians themselves intended them to be.

That they are spells and in some regular order are Allen's contentions and
these are based partly on later works like the coffin texts.  Even were the
latter contention accurate it should be considered that our version of the
"Hymms of Ascension" come from a period long after the great pyramids were
built and the hymms were first written.  You have to not only look at what
the Pyramid Texts are but what they were when the great pyramids were being
built.  Much of this is supposition but it is based on a literal understand-
ing of the meaning.  There are things which become apparent when these are
seen in this light that are not visible otherwise.  

Yes, there probably was an order to these poems before our earliest copy
and this order might be partially preserved and properly reported by Allen.  
It seems more than merely problematical to simply invent a new numbering sys-
tem and casting off the old.  There's no evidence these are even properly un-
derstood at all so how does anyone get off suggesting only his way is right?  
Until he can show any of this magic works or that there are no mysteries in
regards to ancient Egypt he has no business claiming that there is a set or-
der. But even if these were established fact why would anyone invent a system
and not cross reference to the established system???  I've never seen such a
thing.  

Quote

Reading Allen's from beginning to end as opposed to Mercer's or Faulkner's, it's no wonder the spells make so much more sense in Allen's translations. They're in the proper order. The back of Allen's book contains very detailed charts for referencing the numbering system of older translations, so with a little work you can locate any given spell provided by Sethe or Faulkner and find the same in Allen's. Additionally, Allen provides translations for all of the Pyramid Texts that have been uncovered by this point in time, so you can compare the differences in the Texts as they appear in the pyramids of Unis, Teti, Pepi I, and the others. Past translations were mostly incomplete.

I wasn't aware of this.  I guess I'll have to locate a copy of the book.  

You are still treading on very thin ice by claiming that Allen is the final
word on the PT.  The simple fact is that while he eliminates many of the refer-
ences to water and the Land of Horus, those which remain are almost impossible
to interpret in any way other than a description of geysers.  He says that the
Gods are adorned with sky arcs for instance.  

A lot of my distrust for this work is simply the mess that was made of yeast
gas. I'm always going to be dubious where words are translated in various ways
and the translator speaks of concepts that post date the work by centuries.

It's likely that he really is one of the most expert people on the Egyptian
language but that doesn't make him correct on any given translation.  I don't
even know enough to judge but I can read.

[Harte]

I believe that if you put your feet into the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid, your feet will turn into monkey hands.

Now, I mean monkey hands, not monkey feet. Not that there's all that much difference between these appendages on a monkey.  But I, as usual, insist on accuracy and that's why I dwell on the monkey hand/foot distinction here.

Of course, most people probably believe this.  Just because you can't find evidence of it, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.  After all, if you weren't all so lazy, somebody here could easily prove me wrong, right?

Harte

[cladking]

The Puzzler, on 10 May 2010 - 06:08 AM, said:

There seems to be many references where a dream bought a message of importance of they dreamed a prophecy or similar. The Malta temples have dream cubicles they think and I first became interested in what it all meant way back when looking into Malta, it seems a really ancient practice so I wouldn't be suprised if as you say it led to a higher level of development, hard to word but I know what you are saying, I think.

There were certainly some curious dreams last night.

I watched Time Element which was a sort of precursor for Twilight Zone
this morning and it was related to my dreams.  In it a guy goes to the
psychiatrist complaining that he always time travels in his sleep to Hon-
oululu on Dec 6, 1941 from his home in 1958. He gets into various mischief
in the past and then is killed in the Japanese attack the next morning
when he falls asleep in the doctor's office.  He disappears from the doc-
tor's couch and is very soon forgotten.

Let's all be careful out there.  

[Qwasz]

Wouldnt it be cool to take a few select people, and one at a time, have them spend the night in the King's chamber.  Then ask them about the experience when they emerged in the morning.

Here's my list of people to send in:

1. ME FIRST!
2. One of those buddhist monks who heats his body up and evaporates all the water of a soaking wet ice-cold blanket (citation needed)
3. One of those (indian?) guys who slows his heart rate to nearly nothing. (citation needed)
4. One or two shaman from the south american rainforests (citations needed)
5. etc

If the thing is some kind of astral or consciousness device, and assuming it has at least partial functionality in it's current form, perhaps those types of people would have some luck in understanding it.

Would be a fun experiment

[cladking]

I just remembered the Twilight Zone from broadcast TV last
night.  (well it was the night before last actually) (ch 26
-Chicago)

It was "Perchance to Dream" where a guy goes to the psychia-
trist complaining that he dreams serially and a character who
knows he's sleeping is trying to kill him by straining his weak
heart.  He falls asleep on the couch and she polishes him off.  

Last night was "Judgement Night" where Nehemiah Persoff is con-
demned to forever riding in the ship the submarine he commanded
in WW II blew out of the water.

There does seem to be a theme developing.

[cladking]

Qwasz, on 10 May 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Wouldnt it be cool to take a few select people, and one at a time, have them spend the night in the King's chamber.  Then ask them about the experience when they emerged in the morning.

Here's my list of people to send in:

1. ME FIRST!
2. One of those buddhist monks who heats his body up and evaporates all the water of a soaking wet ice-cold blanket (citation needed)
3. One of those (indian?) guys who slows his heart rate to nearly nothing. (citation needed)
4. One or two shaman from the south american rainforests (citations needed)
5. etc

If the thing is some kind of astral or consciousness device, and assuming it has at least partial functionality in it's current form, perhaps those types of people would have some luck in understanding it.

Would be a fun experiment

Napolean Bonapart spent a night in the box and would never tell
anyone what happened.  He said no one would ever believe him.

I can't stand monkey hands.  

Edited by cladking, 10 May 2010 - 08:22 PM.

[Qwasz]

While my own personal suspicion is that the pyramid was used as some type of conscience expanding, projecting, or altering device; but the author of the article is less than convincing.

Clearly the author knows very little about particle physics.  It sounds like they just read the "news" or saw a couple discovery channel shows and think they are onto something.

The only thing I'm convinced of is that it aint a TOMB!  That seems to be an idea created by people with a very narrow knowledge base (and people unable to say "I have no idea).  When you spend your life studying ancient tombs in Egypt (which there are many) and you take a look at the great pyramid, what else are you going to think it is?

When your only tool is hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Although in all honesty, I would think an Egyptian tomb expert would be the first in line shouting "that is nothing like an Egyptian tomb!".  Perhaps they would rather get published and secure tenure... /shrug

That said, the fringe guys suggesting it's a nuclear reactor or some device to speak with nibblers are just as out there as the "experts" and their tomb theories.

In all honestly, there is very little evidence to support ANY theory about what it's purpose was.  Of course, our lack of serious scientific investigation isnt helping.

Edited by Qwasz, 11 May 2010 - 12:07 AM.

[cladking]

Qwasz, on 11 May 2010 - 12:02 AM, said:

In all honestly, there is very little evidence to support ANY theory about what it's purpose was.  Of course, our lack of serious scientific investigation isnt helping.

Well... ...in all fairness whenever they think of a way to prove it
was a tomb made with ramps and the Pyramid Texts are spells they're
all over the science.  

Heaven forfend they should just seek evidence to determine the facts.  

And everyone wonders why there are nothing but mysteries surrounding
a 6 1/2 million ton piece of the REAL world.  Everyone wonders why no
one can crack this mystery while all the assumptions are in error. And
they wonder why there are a million crackpot theories trying to explain
the few known facts.

[Qwasz]

cladking, on 11 May 2010 - 12:58 AM, said:

Well... ...in all fairness whenever they think of a way to prove it
was a tomb made with ramps and the Pyramid Texts are spells they're
all over the science.  

Heaven forfend they should just seek evidence to determine the facts.  

And everyone wonders why there are nothing but mysteries surrounding
a 6 1/2 million ton piece of the REAL world.  Everyone wonders why no
one can crack this mystery while all the assumptions are in error. And
they wonder why there are a million crackpot theories trying to explain
the few known facts.

From what I've read, Egypt is much more concerned about blocking access to real research than in allowing it.  It's pretty sad because I'm sure there are at least a few answers wanting to be discovered... probably lots of answers.

[cladking]

Qwasz, on 11 May 2010 - 04:36 AM, said:

From what I've read, Egypt is much more concerned about blocking access to real research than in allowing it.  It's pretty sad because I'm sure there are at least a few answers wanting to be discovered... probably lots of answers.

Yes.  Exactly.  

I meant that anyone who wants to prove ramps and tombs can
get any sort of funding and testing he wants.  Everyone else
is considered a nutcase and kept far away.

[ShadowSot]

cladking, on 11 May 2010 - 04:57 AM, said:

Yes.  Exactly.  

I meant that anyone who wants to prove ramps and tombs can
get any sort of funding and testing he wants.  Everyone else
is considered a nutcase and kept far away.

Right, which is why student s provided funding by the Edgar Cayce Foundation are able to visit and exam sites, like Mark Lehner.

[ShadowSot]

ShadowSot, on 11 May 2010 - 05:22 AM, said:

Right, which is why student s provided funding by the Edgar Cayce Foundation are able to visit and exam sites, like Mark Lehner.

Also worth mentioning is Graham Hancock, who, while adjusting his theory after seeing the pyramids up close, still doesn't agree with mainstream views.

[kmt_sesh]

Qwasz, on 11 May 2010 - 04:36 AM, said:

From what I've read, Egypt is much more concerned about blocking access to real research than in allowing it.  It's pretty sad because I'm sure there are at least a few answers wanting to be discovered... probably lots of answers.

In actuality, the Supreme Council of Antiquities is more concerned about blocking junk research. People come up with all manner of bizarre and otherworldly ideas about the Great Pyramid, based on what they feel the evidence says, and as such there is no need to grant legitimate consideration to wild speculation. In point of fact, legitimate research must follow the evidence, and the evidence is solidly in line with orthodox theory. Plenty of people here at UM, as one example, think they know "the truth," when in reality they do not understand the science and research applied to Egyptology and honestly have no idea what they're talking about.

All manner of modern and advanced sciences are being applied to the Great Pyramid at this moment, both in research and on site, and these are the people best equipped to provide answers. Someone pecking away at his computer who's never properly studied ancient Egypt and goes at it entirely from the perspective of gut feeling and sci-fi whimsy, is not equipped on any level. Why on earth should we take them seriously? We don't.