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NY's stop and frisk policy challenged


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#31    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:15 AM

View PostOverSword, on 25 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I wonder if they scream racism because no white people get stopped and searched.  This is America and it's pathetic that people got so scared after 9-11 that they begged to have thier rights taken away.  I'm not afraid of terrorists, I'm afraid of power monger politicians and unelected government officials  using the fear of the less intelligent Americans to erode my rights.

I'm also wary of mayors who want control and power over people in both their city and their country. First, he uses the "war on obesity" to ban huge sodas. Then, he uses the "war on guns" to attack our rights. Bloomberg is Big Brother mixed with Mary Poppins.

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#32    pallidin

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:54 AM

Wow. This is just crazy. Didn't know NYC did that.

They're not under legal martial law, so I don't see how they can do this.

Just crazy.


#33    Timonthy

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:52 AM

View Postsam12six, on 25 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I don't know about the law of the land in Australia, but the US Constitution pretty specifically says they can't search citizens without prior evidence that a crime has been committed.

People with attitudes like yours (that's just an observation, not a slam) have enabled cops to stomp rights all over the country:

They don't have the right to search your car when they pull you over for a traffic violation, but if you say no, they'll say, "OK, I'll just have my drug sniffing dog walk around the vehicle a few times."
I presumed the mentality here and there was similar. Similar laws here about the searching of vehicles or property etc. And similarly those laws can easily be circumvented by people in authoritarian positions.

I have a view of Americans which sees them screaming freedom excessively and unnecessarily, having said that, obviously I'm an outsider looking in.

That's all I can offer this topic, not very productive but I think somewhat significant.

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#34    sam12six

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:31 PM

View PostTimonthy, on 07 April 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I presumed the mentality here and there was similar. Similar laws here about the searching of vehicles or property etc. And similarly those laws can easily be circumvented by people in authoritarian positions.

I have a view of Americans which sees them screaming freedom excessively and unnecessarily, having said that, obviously I'm an outsider looking in.

That's all I can offer this topic, not very productive but I think somewhat significant.

I"m not one of the people who think non Americans should not have opinions (no legal say, sure, but opinions don't bother me). I think discussion is always a good thing.

That said, you say there are laws in place to protect you, laws that authorities routinely ignore as they do here, yet you don't have a problem with that? Where do you draw the line? Is it when they break the law against planting evidence on you to wrongly convict you of a crime? How about when they decide the law that promises they won't shoot you down like a dog in the street is no longer in effect?

While my hypotheticals may seem far fetched, they are technically just as bad as violating the Constitution's protection from illegal search and seizure. There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.


#35    aztek

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

View Postsam12six, on 08 April 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.
well they are not permited on papaer, but they do it, and get away with that 99 out of 100 times, and courts, judges, DA's cover them up, unless it is something too big, or they can no longer hide.this is reality of life, yes we do have problem with that, but we have problems, they have power, and no way in hell they will just release it, or listen to how you  think they should do their job. there is nothing avarige joe shmo can do. that is also reality of life.

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#36    Timonthy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

View Postsam12six, on 08 April 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I"m not one of the people who think non Americans should not have opinions (no legal say, sure, but opinions don't bother me). I think discussion is always a good thing.

That said, you say there are laws in place to protect you, laws that authorities routinely ignore as they do here, yet you don't have a problem with that? Where do you draw the line? Is it when they break the law against planting evidence on you to wrongly convict you of a crime? How about when they decide the law that promises they won't shoot you down like a dog in the street is no longer in effect?

While my hypotheticals may seem far fetched, they are technically just as bad as violating the Constitution's protection from illegal search and seizure. There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.
Randomly being frisked, having my car (this has happened) or property searched, breath tests etc. I have no issue with and would not request warrants. I would ask why and take film to document it but I am not a criminal and I have nothing to worry about.
I know what you're saying with the technicalities but still, as a law abiding citizen I'm happier knowing that there's a higher chance they will get the people who are breaking the law.

Planting evidence etc. is a massive jump. Yes grey areas always leave it open to the possibility of an escalation of issues but I have faith in the majority of people with authority. There will always be crooked cops that slip through recruitment and corrupt the force but bad people work their way into all areas of society, so we can only do our best to put those people away and let the good ones do their jobs to the best of their ability.

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#37    sam12six

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:11 PM

View Postaztek, on 09 April 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

well they are not permited on papaer, but they do it, and get away with that 99 out of 100 times, and courts, judges, DA's cover them up, unless it is something too big, or they can no longer hide.this is reality of life, yes we do have problem with that, but we have problems, they have power, and no way in hell they will just release it, or listen to how you  think they should do their job. there is nothing avarige joe shmo can do. that is also reality of life.

There's maybe nothing we can do about it, but maybe there is. It is a fact, though, that unless we actually care, things will only get worse.


View PostTimonthy, on 09 April 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Randomly being frisked, having my car (this has happened) or property searched, breath tests etc. I have no issue with and would not request warrants. I would ask why and take film to document it but I am not a criminal and I have nothing to worry about.
I know what you're saying with the technicalities but still, as a law abiding citizen I'm happier knowing that there's a higher chance they will get the people who are breaking the law.

Planting evidence etc. is a massive jump. Yes grey areas always leave it open to the possibility of an escalation of issues but I have faith in the majority of people with authority. There will always be crooked cops that slip through recruitment and corrupt the force but bad people work their way into all areas of society, so we can only do our best to put those people away and let the good ones do their jobs to the best of their ability.

Protection from illegal search and seizure is not to protect criminals from the consequences of their actions, it's to prevent corrupt officers from having the opportunity to frame innocents. Granted, more guilty will walk if their rights are protected than innocent will be framed if their rights aren't, but that's what our justice system is supposed to be based on - the concept that if ten people are under suspicion, it's better for 9 guilty men to go free than for the tenth, innocent one to be wrongly convicted.

As I said, I don't know if your laws protect you from random searches, but ours is definitely supposed to. There's no massive jump between their breaking the law of the land to strip you of your protections and their breaking the law of the land to change evidence requirements.

Keep in mind, the framers of the US Constitution were super paranoid about the government they were establishing becoming corrupt (in fact, most believed it was inevitable that all governments quickly become this way). The protections they put in the document were specifically to prevent "the people" from coming to fear the government.

To put how far we are down that path in perspective, imagine you're driving down the road and you suddenly see blue lights in your rear view mirror: I'd bet there's a ~100% chance your reaction is going to be something along the line of "Oh, crap!!" and ~0% that it'll be "Oh, the helpful officer is going to let me know that I forgot to put the cap on my fuel tank."


#38    Wyrdlight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

In my experiance police get very very canny at spotting "bad customers", I mean they do so for a job every day.

We have stop and search in the UK and I belive that there must be "reasonable grounds" before a search can be carried out. Its more about how you define "reasonable".

As an example.
Case 1.
You are a policeman, you see two men high vis vests and paint stained clothes walking down the road, they are talking and one is carrying a tool-box.

Case 2.
You are a policeman, you see a man in a suit walking briskly down the street towards the train station.

Case 3.
You are a policeman, you see a pair of young men in hooded jackets standing hunched at street corner, they have their hands in thier pockets and appear to be doing nothing of any use or reason. Its a warm summers day.

Case 4.
You are a policeman, you see a man in a parked car, the car has not moved in some time, the man looks agitated when he meets your gaze.

Now, which of the above would you feel the need to investigate?

Now, it may be that due to various social reasons that poor neghbourhoods are more of one racial group than another, but the fact is that if I see case 3 or 4 I would instantly think "What are they up to? why is the man in he car acting agitated? why are the two young men wearing hoods on a hot day? What are they doing?

A policeman would likely say "The dude in the car has somthing to hide, the young men are carrying somthing they should not".

This, is NOT racism, this is "I have been doing this job for a long time and I got a hunch" its those hunches that police rely on to do there jobs.

Also, if the last 8 black/latino guys you stoped were carrying drugs or packing a weapon, stopping no.9 cos he is black or latino and fits the outline all the others who were breaking the law, is NOT racism.


#39    sam12six

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:01 PM

It's not about racism. It's about the fact that even experienced cops aren't mindreaders and "That guy looks suspicious" isn't (or at least shouldn't be) just cause to question or search someone. Even 20 years ago, you know what they'd do? They'd go up to the person, say a friendly "Hi", let them presence be felt. Anything more is a violation of (American) rights.

You know why drug dogs false alert half the time in tests? Because their handlers EXPECT certain people to have drugs (whether that's because of race, dress, demeanor, whatever). When this happens, the dogs alert even without smelling something. Now, some people are going to be thinking, "That's fine, they'll still be right half the time.", but the point is US Government officials aren't supposed to detain citizens for a fishing expedition.


#40    aztek

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:03 PM

View Postsam12six, on 09 April 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

There's maybe nothing we can do about it, but maybe there is. It is a fact, though, that unless we actually care, things will only get worse.
than tell us what can be done by avarige joe that will see results fast, and wont get him\her arrested\jailed and posibly ruin the rest of his life???? don't just go with  "we need to care" meningless b.s.

Edited by aztek, 09 April 2013 - 09:04 PM.

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#41    The Silver Thong

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:24 AM

Get rid of the quotas the police are forced to get.

Make it the law that all arrests are taped audio and visual. Make the police accountable same as the damn politicians.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 10 April 2013 - 02:25 AM.

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#42    The Silver Thong

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:30 AM

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#43    SpiritWalker7

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:09 AM

It's kind of hard to tell who hides something or not, especially if someone is hiding something.
I can understand that they'd want to ensure safety in a widely populated city, but they should find less demeaning ways(more accurate ways).


#44    sam12six

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 10 April 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Get rid of the quotas the police are forced to get.

Make it the law that all arrests are taped audio and visual. Make the police accountable same as the damn politicians.

I'd also add eliminating the police getting to keep any money or merchandise from fines or seizures. That's a big conflict of interest.


#45    coolguy

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:07 AM

Like aztek said they are going after the criminals. Crime in ny is one of the lowest in America unlike Chicago where there are like 20 killings a week.
Cops know when some body is carrying a pistol

Edited by coolguy, 10 April 2013 - 04:09 AM.





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