33 replies to this topic

[Coyote Speaks]

Habitat, on 04 February 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

If it wasn't that particular spear, it would have been another. Any other. Attaching significance to the spear, or the so-called "holy grail", or any other object that happened to lying about at the time, plumbs the depths of silliness, IMO. It is a way of completely missing that which matters, and concentrate on irrelevancies,incidentals that have less importance to the story than a stage prop in a Shakespearean play.

I think it's human nature to attach significance to a particular item/place/etc.  It certainly has been going on throughout most of our history.  While I agree that it misses the point, isn't it still important to consider if other people are taking it seriously?  In this case, at least, if a group such as "Sons of the Fallen" do exist?

[Habitat]

To attach particular importance to inanimate objects that would have been readily substitutable is more a way of disrespecting the animate player(s) in a drama, than anything else. I can understand the Brits fixated on the Spitfire aeroplane for its pivotal role in the battle of Britain, or the Russians the T-34 tank, neither of which could have been substituted for by any old replacement, to my mind the quality that can be best ascribed to seekers of lost spears is feeble-mindedness, they need all the artificial and magical powers they can harness !  

[Englishgent]

Coyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Hence the evil that are emoticons... they truly are necessary.  

Really, though.  What do you think of the reasoning behind the spear having such supernatural powers?  If we consider God being non-interventionist then his son could be killed (alternately, we could assume that it is His will with the outcome being the same.)  The item that deals the deathblow and sheds holy blood would have some sort of power behind it.

On the other hand, if we view Jesus as a merely historical figure.. his followers would probably still view the spear that dealt his deathblow as important.  You're still watching your leader/man of import being murdered, it would make sense to assume it has some sort of mystical power attached to it.

Again, this is just speculation and trying to make sense of the legend.  The thought process seems to follow quite naturally, for me at least.  What are your thoughts?

There is more than one viewpoint that really should be taken into consideration.
Firstly, from a religous point of view, I could ee somebody attaching great importance and maybe supernatural power to the spear or as Habitat says,  to any relic allegedly used or worn or touched even, by their leader. Taking the spear, for example, if a person truly believed he was holding the spear that pierced the side of jesus, then I can see that person believing he has more power than if he was just holding a normal spear. I think though, that any supernatural power attributed to the spear would be in the mind of the person holding it. If not, this spear would have come to light long before now.
Secondly, we need to look at it from a non believers point of view. In this case the spear would be of historical value or importance, but nothing else. No alleged supernatural powers. You only need look inside the many of the 'Black Museums' that Police Forces have (certainly in the UK and I would imagine USA too) to see weapons used by notorious murderers of the past.  Many people have a macabre side to them and like to actually see these items for themselves.
What I think we must not do is lose touch with reality. Interesting as it may be, the spear, if it is ever found and proved to be the original,  will be just that. A spear. No magical powers. There will always be many deeply relgous people who will believe otherwise and that is perhaps why somebody like Hitler would have found it useful to have in his possession.  

[Habitat]

What do you suppose Jesus Christ would have to say about such ratbaggery ? Nothing complimentary I'd say !

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Kinda like Jesus being the finger pointing to the moon? I was directing that after a comment made by habitat.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 04 February 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[Habitat]

Aus Der Box Skeptisch, on 04 February 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

Kinda like Jesus being the finger pointing to the moon? I was directing that after a comment made by habitat.

You'll have to explain that to me, I am a little slow on the uptake.  

[3amfright]

Coyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

I know that there have been several topics on the spear already.  The quick summary is that the "spear of destiny" is Longinus' spear, the one used to pierce Jesus' side.  The spear supposedly gives the one who carries it the ability to never fall in battle, but if it falls out of their hands, then they die.  The spear's legend traces it to everyone from Alexander the Great to Hitler.  Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

A recent episode of Brad Meltzer's Decoded went into the history of the spear and ended on a rather odd note.  Apparently there are groups of people still searching for this thing?  The last clip mentioned a group called "The Sons of the Fallen" who worship Lucifer as the true God and either have or are searching for the spear.  

Any thoughts from you guys?

I think the concept that there are many "groups" or "societies" that base their workings on 'beliefs' is fascinating as well. Scientific or spiritual, it is very human nature for people to organize themselves into groups based upon shared beliefs (hence this site & forum). To the extensions that some groups go leaves with us either fascination & curiosity or a sense of 'what the f?' & irritation for ignorance of our concept of reality.

I'm curious as well of how cults, groups or societies view the supposed 'Spear of Destiny'. Be it a simple spear or not, it is obviously an object pondered upon enough for people of many walks to give it great significance. What would occur if it was actually found? Like you asked Coyote Speaks, are "The Sons of the Fallen" so hardcore in their beliefs of the spears power that they are going to (compared to our own curiosity or lack there of) great lengths to obtain it? Magical or not, what would be the end result for them if they did obtain it?

[PersonFromPorlock]

Coyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

I may be a little odd, but the Nazis strike me as having been mainly childish. Nasty children, to be sure, but it was all "Death to the enemy!" and 'wonder weapons' and 'vast conspiracies' and "No Girls!" and quite a lot of "it's not faiirrr!" and (fortunately for us) incredible short-sightedness, all of which will be pretty much familiar to anyone who was ever a small boy. Anyway, if it'd make for a good comic book, I'm pretty sure the Nazis would go for it. Not Speer (too rational), and not Goering (too cynical), but the rest of 'em.

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 19 February 2012 - 01:57 AM.

[shrewgoddess]

I think this story is fascinating, though there's not a whole lot to take completely serious about its powers, etc. There are a few legends around the origin of the spear. In these, the name of the soldier that stabbed Jesus is Longinus but his fate is different.

In the first one, Longinus was converted to Christianity after piercing Jesus's side. He apparently helped to clean the body and was eventually buried with the sponge that held the blood of Jesus. His body was found and lost something like two times. Because of this conversion, he was named a saint. (He is a saint, that much isn't disputed.)

In the second, Longinus was cursed for stabbing Jesus and sent to a cave to live where each night a lion would come to him and maul him. This would be repeated until the end of time.

Another tale I've heard is that he was cursed to live until Jesus came again, roaming the earth knowing that he helped bring about the death of God's son. That one, I think, however, may be a mash-up of the Centurion and the Wandering Jew tale.

In any case, Longinus was either saved from a curse because he immediately saw the error of his ways or he was cursed. The spear, however, is an inanimate object and so it wouldn't be cursed any more than the shards of the cross would be cursed. First of all, the crucifixion was part of God's plan. Second, these things are inanimate objects that were then touched by Jesus and washed in his blood. They are relics of the highest order... or would be, if they truly still existed.

[Englishgent]

shrewgoddess, on 19 February 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I think this story is fascinating, though there's not a whole lot to take completely serious about its powers, etc. There are a few legends around the origin of the spear. In these, the name of the soldier that stabbed Jesus is Longinus but his fate is different.

In the first one, Longinus was converted to Christianity after piercing Jesus's side. He apparently helped to clean the body and was eventually buried with the sponge that held the blood of Jesus. His body was found and lost something like two times. Because of this conversion, he was named a saint. (He is a saint, that much isn't disputed.)

In the second, Longinus was cursed for stabbing Jesus and sent to a cave to live where each night a lion would come to him and maul him. This would be repeated until the end of time.

Another tale I've heard is that he was cursed to live until Jesus came again, roaming the earth knowing that he helped bring about the death of God's son. That one, I think, however, may be a mash-up of the Centurion and the Wandering Jew tale.

In any case, Longinus was either saved from a curse because he immediately saw the error of his ways or he was cursed. The spear, however, is an inanimate object and so it wouldn't be cursed any more than the shards of the cross would be cursed. First of all, the crucifixion was part of God's plan. Second, these things are inanimate objects that were then touched by Jesus and washed in his blood. They are relics of the highest order... or would be, if they truly still existed.

Of course, if this spear truly held supernatural powers, one would expect Longinus to end up as emperor as he was the one who had ownership of the spear and would therefore be able to defeat anyone due to the spears powers. . . He didnt,..... it doesnt

I find it rather odd though, that this guy allegedly pierces jesus with his spear then because he sees the error of his ways he is made a saint?......Nevermind god walking in mysterious ways,,,,the church does too

[hetrodoxly]

Abramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

You know about 'matches', right? Those little sticks to light your cigaret, or your nose if you happen to be blind.

Here in the Netherlands we call those things "lucifers".

But hey, we Dutch are the "Sons and Daughters of the Fallen".

God-The-Great-White-Bearded-Father-In-Heaven wants to drown us, but we fight back... building dikes, lol.

I haven't time for debate at the moment but on a side note  "lucifers" were the name of the first matches patented in England.

[Mangoze]

IIRC, the spear didn't actually kill Jesus anyway.  He was already dead.

[DieChecker]

Coyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The last clip mentioned a group called "The Sons of the Fallen" who worship Lucifer as the true God and either have or are searching for the spear.  

Any thoughts from you guys?

Never heard of them. Perhaps I'll look around....

Going off what is Online, the "Sons of the Fallen" is completely made up. There is no reliable reference to them anyway, but lots and lots of fringy opinions.

Englishgent, on 04 February 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

The other thing I find strange about it is this.  If the spear was used to pierce the side of this guy Jesus while he was on the cross, why does it give power to anybody weilding it? Who gives it this power. The christian god?  Surely if this god exists and it was his son who was on the cross, would god not rather curse anyone holding this spear?  
Or is it this so called 'satan' chappie who gives the spear it's power. I was always told that the christian god was all powerful. Surely he would not let a little thing like satan take over?

Like the "Cross", the Spear was said to have powers, because it was used to prove that Jesus was dead. Jesus needed to die and knew he would die. He was dead when the spear pierced his side. It is a symbol of Jesus's death and Resurrection, much like the bits of the True Cross you find all over Europe, and the Holy Grail, and the Shroud of Turin. All of them supposedly held powers due to their assisting in the required death of Jesus.

What I find interesting is that there are several Spears. One I think is made with a Nail of the crucifix, so it is not "The" spear. The others are argued to not have been from a Legionarres spear, as that would most likely be a pilum, which was a stubby pointed spear meant to be used and then bent to hinder whoever got poked. It was the local levies that had the long broad tip spears. And probably a Roman named Longinus would not be using a local spear.

I think the spear that was used was just another spear and rusted away in its time.

Edited by DieChecker, 20 February 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[Taun]

DieChecker, on 20 February 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Never heard of them. Perhaps I'll look around....

Going off what is Online, the "Sons of the Fallen" is completely made up. There is no reliable reference to them anyway, but lots and lots of fringy opinions.


Like the "Cross", the Spear was said to have powers, because it was used to prove that Jesus was dead. Jesus needed to die and knew he would die. He was dead when the spear pierced his side. It is a symbol of Jesus's death and Resurrection, much like the bits of the True Cross you find all over Europe, and the Holy Grail, and the Shroud of Turin. All of them supposedly held powers due to their assisting in the required death of Jesus.

What I find interesting is that there are several Spears. One I think is made with a Nail of the crucifix, so it is not "The" spear. The others are argued to not have been from a Legionarres spear, as that would most likely be a pilum, which was a stubby pointed spear meant to be used and then bent to hinder whoever got poked. It was the local levies that had the long broad tip spears. And probably a Roman named Longinus would not be using a local spear.

I think the spear that was used was just another spear and rusted away in its time.

I'm glad you brought that up about the pilum... If memory serves me rightly, the Roman's last used the long 'hastatii' spear about 100 years before this event... if a 'real' spear was used - not a pilum, which was as you say a sort of heavy javelin/spear hybrid - it would have most likely been a city or temple guardsman's - not a Legionaires...

Does the Bible actually give his name as Longinus? (It's been so long since I read that bit I can't remember) if not - how did the name get attached?

EDIT: After more thought I suppose it is possible that Roman's on 'Execution Duty' could have carried a longer spear just for such purposes (the final 'kindness' of a quicker death for those that might linger overly long)...

Edited by Taun, 21 February 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[ealdwita]

Habitat, on 04 February 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Is there solid evidence that Hitler was interested in this sort of stuff, or is it that just another legend in itself ?

There are several ‘Spears of Destiny’ in existence, the  one with perhaps the best claim, or at least the oldest provenance is in the Hofburg Museum in Vienna, Austria. This spear, said to be the lance of the Roman soldier Gaius Cassius, can be traced back through history to Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor who first adopted Christianity in the early 4th century.

A young Adolf Hitler visited the Museum in 1912 and learned of the lance and its reputation. Dr. Walter Stein, who accompanied Hitler on that visit, remembered, “when we first stood side by side in front of the Spear of Destiny it appeared to me that Hitler was in so deep a condition of trance that he was suffering almost complete sense-denudation and a total lack of self-consciousness.”

Hitler later said, “I stood there quietly gazing upon it for several minutes quite oblivious to the scene around me. It seemed to carry some hidden inner meaning which evaded me, a meaning which I felt I inwardly knew yet could not bring to consciousness…I felt as though I myself had held it before in some earlier century of history. That I myself had once claimed it as my talisman of power and held the destiny of the world in my hands…”

Hitler saw the lance as his mystical connection with generations of conquering Germanic leaders that had come before him.

On 12th March 1938, the day Hitler annexed Austria, he arrived in Vienna a conquering hero. He first port of call was to the Hofmuseum where he took possession of the Spear which he immediately sent to Nuremberg, the spiritual capital of Nazi Germany.

At 2.10 on 30th April, 1945, during the final days of the war, after considerable bombing of Nuremberg, the Spear fell into the hands of the American 7th Army under General Patton. Later that day, in fulfillment of the legend, Hitler committed suicide.

In 1946 The Spear of Destiny and the rest of the Imperial Regalia were returned to Austria.

(Source: My files)