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#46    Sean93

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 December 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

This is presumptuous of me, but you have a chioice about how you feel and how you think/respond to your life. I appreciate tha tlike allof us oyu have been conditioned to think and respond in a certain wa yto lifes fortunes but you do not HVE to chose to respond so,
At worst you have the ability to end your life, at best you have the abilty to make of it anything you choose, or at least spend your life aiming and striving to do this.

I have several times seen interviews with a man  born with no arms and only one tiny vestigal leg. He now makes millions for his charitable institution, giving inspirational talks around the world, and spends his time helping others. He has tried many things, including surfing and refuses to allow his disabilty to define him.

Once you are dead you have NO further choices, and all freedom to choose, is taken from you. You no longer have the huge potential which resides in you as a human being.

You can't really fight your thoughts and feelings and how I feel about life is there and I doubt any acts of charity or happy-thinking will change it because to me, nonexistence would be the best thing there is. Every time I think of those dreamless sleeps I feel happy because I know that for a little while, everything vanishes and ceases to be.

I've had a terrible few years in the past and the only thing that I loved back then apart from Snow Patrol was sleeping.

Of course that's just me and I'm sure you have your reasons for preferring life I mean, you're a guy who talks to God ffs, I'd love to see the stuff you've seen.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#47    Sean93

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 December 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Does an infant ask for it's parents to take care of it? Does it ask to be loved? Does it ask to be given life? No. But it has been given life. And it is in fact loved. That is something that the infant cannot avoid. So if it were to suddnly refuse it's mother's milk, move vigorously to get itself free, fall and break a limb, get beaten and broken by pets or animals or other infants, and not only not ask for but refuse it's parent's aide, who's fault is it that the infant despise's it's existance? You're life IS in fact a blessing, and you ARE in fact loved. You have simply, like myself and every other human that's ever existed, refused your parent's aide.

I'm sure you are undoubtedly aware of all the heartache and pain in the world. You are by no means the only one. I myself have had incredible misfortunes in my life, but it has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I have never asked God to help me. I have never truly applied Christ's teachings to my life, I had never really done what he had said. It wasn't all my fault by far that my life turned out so horribly, it never is for anyone. But I know now that although I can't change other's, I can change myself.

I tell you the truth, there is only one way to save yourself from this misery, and that is to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I know very well this is most likely all in vain, and that this will all fall on deaf ears, but I must at least give it a try. I understand if you don't accept, in fact most people don't. However I do hope and pray you decide otherwise my friend. If you ever need anything, or need to talk, I'll be here. And so will Christ.

I've had my years with God, during a time in my life when I was in severe dread, sorrow and anguish and I can honestly say that I got myself out of that pit not God, no matter my prayers...at least that's how I see it, you might see it as Jesus which is only natural and if it keeps you happy, then by all means, stick by it; I wish I had something to anchor my life like you but y'know, **** happens.

I know that you being a follower of Jesus would advise me to turn to him...well I did before as said above and it worked out in the end...but no due to holy books or Gods, just me. I'll never be religious but I will say that for my skepticism, every now and again, I find myself almost believing in a creator in deistic terms (I love the universe and it's wonder and it baffles me) but 'll never follow religions or the life laws of other men/women because we're too small a planet and race and the universe is so large.

But it'd be nice if we were to all end up okay in the end.

Edited by Sean93, 27 December 2012 - 02:26 AM.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#48    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

I've had my years with God pal, during a time in my life when I was in severe dread, sorrow and anguish and I can honestly say that I got myself out of that pit not God, no matter my prayers...at least that's how I see it, you might see it as Jesus which is only natural and if it keeps you happy, then by all means, stick by it; I wish I had something to anchor my life like you but y'know, **** happens.

I

Well, good luck my friend. As I said, if you ever need to talk, I'm here. And I promise I won't beat ya over the head with the same line. ^_^

Best of luck.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#49    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

You can't really fight your thoughts and feelings and how I feel about life is there and I doubt any acts of charity or happy-thinking will change it because to me, nonexistence would be the best thing there is. Every time I think of those dreamless sleeps I feel happy because I know that for a little while, everything vanishes and ceases to be.

I've had a terrible few years in the past and the only thing that I loved back then apart from Snow Patrol was sleeping.

Of course that's just me and I'm sure you have your reasons for preferring life I mean, you're a guy who talks to God ffs, I'd love to see the stuff you've seen.
That is why i started by saying it was presumtuous of me.

But the truth is you can choose your thoughts and your intellectual/emotional responses. It is just a matter of self discipline and will power, knowing that you can, and perhaps studying a little about how to go about it.

I have no experience with constant lifelong pain or suffering, but i have endured a week of excruciating agony after a triple by pass and several years of blinding headaches and neck pains , and i KNOW that one can  alter ones thoughts perceptions, and even the degree of pain felt, by mental discipline.

Whatever happens, I sincerely wish you well in life and i respect your right to chose whatever outcomes you decide for your life. I am just saying there ARE alternatives. On occasions, while in agony, i thought i would rather be dead at that time but i also knew that death is forever and life is open to change. I have been pain free for many years now, due to medical treatments that have improved and my mental self control over pain perception, but if I'd died then i would never have had those years of life and all the understanding tha twent with them. I would rather be alive, conscious, aware and capable of thinking , in a machine, than dead. Ive been dead (before i was born) and it didn't really grab me as an experience. Dead boring, pardon the pun.

Ps i am going to assume you have seen a doctor about depression, and are either getting chemical treatment for it, or undergoing a programme of cognitive therapy. If not, your symptoms and language, sound a lot like classic depression,  which can be very effectively treated today. Depression can exist independent of the physical condition of your body, although that can contribute to you being depressed.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 December 2012 - 02:42 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    joc

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:14 AM

Why would anyone care who or what someone else 'worships'?  If  one has a problem with anothers beliefs, it is a reflection of the insecurity that one has with their own belief.  An insecurity of belief leads one to belittle another's.  When one is secure in their own belief those of others are irrelevant.

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#51    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

View Postjoc, on 27 December 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Why would anyone care who or what someone else 'worships'?  If  one has a problem with anothers beliefs, it is a reflection of the insecurity that one has with their own belief.  An insecurity of belief leads one to belittle another's.  When one is secure in their own belief those of others are irrelevant.

Not true.

If the core of one's belief system is to bring other's to their own belief, then by attempting to assimilate them is not an act of insecurity, but loyalty to their God. It is at the core of many religions across the world.

You see, to believe something means you believe it is true. Therefore it only makes sense for one to attempt to spread what they believe to be true.

So in a way, security in one's beliefs can actually be found be attempting to spread their beliefs (if their beliefs are founded on the conversion of others that is).

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#52    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:38 AM

View Postjoc, on 27 December 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Why would anyone care who or what someone else 'worships'?  If  one has a problem with anothers beliefs, it is a reflection of the insecurity that one has with their own belief.  An insecurity of belief leads one to belittle another's.  When one is secure in their own belief those of others are irrelevant.

When said belief hurts others, I have a problem with it.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."

http://www.astrology...ead.php?t=81593

#53    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:40 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 December 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Not true.

If the core of one's belief system is to bring other's to their own belief, then by attempting to assimilate them is not an act of insecurity, but loyalty to their God. It is at the core of many religions across the world.

You see, to believe something means you believe it is true. Therefore it only makes sense for one to attempt to spread what they believe to be true.

So in a way, security in one's beliefs can actually be found be attempting to spread their beliefs (if their beliefs are founded on the conversion of others that is).

Like we are the borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile?

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."

http://www.astrology...ead.php?t=81593

#54    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Like we are the borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile?

Unexpected analogy... Different process, different motives, but essentially yeah... Except the resistance is futile thing, you can resist with this...

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#55    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Like we are the borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile?
While i love star trek i have a problem in how hive minds like the borg are usually portrayed as negative.

I suspect that this is  a racial prejudice created because humans are used to having independent separate consciousnesses, and fear assimilation and the abilty for one mind to share with another or link to it..

They do not realise they already are a part of a huge hive mind, and already have been 'organically" assimilated.  The desirability of It depends on the form and nature of the hive mind. In reality, the hive mind consists of independent consciousnesses which can link into a net work or web of larger consciousness. It is very much like the net or www. In the old days I described it as like a party line on a telephone. All participants can hook into the network or separate themselves from it on conscious command.

To mention again one of my fav. movies, this is the form of planetary consciousness portrayed in avatar but on a universal scale.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#56    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:30 AM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

I've had my years with God, during a time in my life when I was in severe dread, sorrow and anguish and I can honestly say that I got myself out of that pit not God, no matter my prayers...at least that's how I see it, you might see it as Jesus which is only natural and if it keeps you happy, then by all means, stick by it; I wish I had something to anchor my life like you but y'know, **** happens.

I know that you being a follower of Jesus would advise me to turn to him...well I did before as said above and it worked out in the end...but no due to holy books or Gods, just me. I'll never be religious but I will say that for my skepticism, every now and again, I find myself almost believing in a creator in deistic terms (I love the universe and it's wonder and it baffles me) but 'll never follow religions or the life laws of other men/women because we're too small a planet and race and the universe is so large.

But it'd be nice if we were to all end up okay in the end.

I was once like you, the circumststances were different but the thoughts I had are basically along the same line as yours... I found out I was quite wrong. It was the anger talking, the feeling of abandonment...

I would share with you something that helped a little in changing my outlook.

Posted Image


I know it may sound corny but this poem helped me to see that even when I thought I succeeded in doing things alone, behind the scenes I was being helped, even when I didn't know it.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#57    Rlyeh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

View PostJor-el, on 26 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Humanity has a long history of considering others to be subhuman, white to black, Yellow, to white, short to tall, women to men. Yet, this is not what this killing was about. You may feel that to be an excuse, but according to the biblical record, those tribes were hybrids, not merely an enemy occupying a land they wanted.
Dehumanizing your enemy is a common tactic.


#58    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 27 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Dehumanizing your enemy is a common tactic.

I do NOT deny the tactic. But consider this following...

What if in this case, it is true?

My source is the bible, I believe it to be correct, even if incomplete and sometimes skewed from a personal point of view of the author.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#59    Rlyeh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:45 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 December 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

He's given us all life, free will, and his only son's life. What praytell hasn't he given you for you to worship him?
Have you thanked Prometheus for creating humans and going against the gods to give us fire?

Quote

Children are molested and killed by our free will because he loves us enough not to intervene.
Have you actually read the Bible? God most definitely intervenes.

Quote

If he intervene's we become robots, with no free will of our own. Besides, the unjust will get what they deserve after death, and the innocent children will get what they deserve after death. The children can still if abused, grow up to become good, and the children that die automatically are God's.
Where does the Bible say this?
According to some Christians, even unbaptized babies are burning in hell.


#60    libstaK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

View PostJor-el, on 27 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I was once like you, the circumststances were different but the thoughts I had are basically along the same line as yours... I found out I was quite wrong. It was the anger talking, the feeling of abandonment...

I would share with you something that helped a little in changing my outlook.

Posted Image


I know it may sound corny but this poem helped me to see that even when I thought I succeeded in doing things alone, behind the scenes I was being helped, even when I didn't know it.
Interesting you bring that up.  I have that poem in my purse.  I first came across it as a newspaper clipping cut out and sticky taped to the edge of a computer monitor in a temp job I worked many years ago.  I asked about it and was told that the lady who worked there before me was a single mother who had run from an abusive ex husband and had to struggle to create a new life for herself and her child, the poem had helped her get through each day.  I asked what happened to her.  She had resigned as she was in a new relationship and her partner had a job interstate she went with him along with her child.  Apparently she was very much in love with this new man and he was wonderful to her child and herself, the girl telling me this was teary eyed and happy to relate the happy ending.

I'm not saying life always comes with a happy ending that we understand through faith, but I could see that this lady made it through some terrible ordeals intact and ready to love again in part because she held onto faith inspite of all the evidence to the contrary.  She remained capable of facing each day anew and moved forward. Maybe it was her own resolve and strong will, who knows.  Then again maybe the burden was eased with strength and resolve gifted from above to endure hard times, again who knows.

What I know is she made it through and used whatever tools she found available to do that, this poem was a very important tool in her tool kit it seems and has been for many others.  By leaving it behind I heard her story and kept that poem (my own copy I tracked down later, the newspaper clipping I left on the monitor for the next person), it always makes me smile in hard times too, she doesn't know she passed her faith forward in that way - a good deed she doesn't even know she did, I like that too, it's like a chain of good will.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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