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Osarseph and Exodus


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#31    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:51 AM

View Postthe L, on 05 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

...

We have evidence ot 10 plagues of Egypt. Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut's Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

...

I have to echo cormac's cautionary note about Wiki. As convenient and tempting as it may be, it cannot be regarded as a primary research source. Very little on the internet can be. Of value are translations, for example, of the sorts of inscriptions and monuments you listed—in so far as the translations were performed by legitimate Egyptologists or other historians with the requisite linguistic training. Let's take a closer look, then:

Tempest Stela: Click here for a good translation of this monument. It was conducted by Robert Ritner, a prominent Egyptologist at the Oriental Institute. The stela dates to the dawn of Dynasty 18 (around 1550 BCE) and that alone discounts any possible connection with the Hebrews. Much too early. In any case, the stela provides an account of what appears to be a memorable flood. This is not evidenced in Exodus, so there again a connection is lacking. Moreover, the general thrust of the inscription is to glorify Ahmose I. It's more typical pharaonic bombast than anything else.

Speos Artemidos: Click here for a translation of the relevant part of the inscription. The Reshafim site is one of the few on the internet I myself trust. I've used it in my own translation exercises. But as to the inscription, Hatshepsut took the throne around 1472 BCE, so here again we have a time period too early to have involved the Hebrews. This portion of the inscription was commissioned to glorify Hatshepsut and her efforts to expel the Asiatics (Hyksos) from Egypt—which is amusing on the face of it because the Hyksos had been gone from Egypt for almost eighty years. But this was a common tactic of pharaohs, who were aggressive self-promoters. The occasional pharaoh, even one of historical significance, was known to copy an earlier pharaoh's inscription verbatim simply to glorify himself. But the overriding fact is that the inscription concerns the Hyksos and has no observable connections with Exodus. The mistake might lie in the common misconception that there was some connection between the Hyksos and the Hebrews, but of course there was not. Such a connection is impossible.

El Arish inscription: Click here for a detailed discussion of this artifact, as well as full translations farther down the page. The supposed connections with Exodus originated from the writings of Immanuel Velikovsky, whose work is not taken seriously for a variety of reasons. Velikovsky's interpretation of the inscription has been completely refuted. In truth the El Arish inscription concerns the deities Shu and Geb and was cut in the Ptolemaic Period. No connection with Exodus exists.

Admonitions of Ipuwer: Click here for a decent translation of the text. This comes from the Reshafim site, too. Scholars are divided on the time period to which the original text dates, but most would agree the story in the text concerns either the upheavals of the First Intermediate Period or the hegemony of the Hyksos in the Second Intermediate Period. Either is possible based on the tenor and events described in the text. The First Intermediate Period began around 2200 BCE so, again, this is a time period a very long time before the emergence of the Hebrews. The Hyksos we've already reviewed, and no connection with a Hebrew tradition is tenable.

In writing this outline of inscriptions and texts I am perfectly aware that some scholars of a century ago (or more) themselves saw possible biblical connections (although not with the El Arish inscription, which to my knowledge no historian of any period has seen in this light). Such texts are also popular with fringe proponents and New Agers, so obviously neither of these groups is to be taken seriously. What's important is to consult current research and analyze it in the scope of what we legitimately know about pharaonic history based on extant evidence.

When we do so, we see a repeating pattern that has been stressed right here at UM many times: no evidence for an event like Exodus exists in any form from pharaonic sources.

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#32    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states  that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.
What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

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#33    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

View Postthe L, on 07 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.
What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

That's not reflected in the geological history of Santorini which places the eruption about 1610 BC with the next eruption not happening until 197 BC.

http://www.volcano.s...=&volpage=erupt

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#34    kmt_sesh

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:20 AM

View Postthe L, on 07 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states  that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.

Cormac already provided information on the geological history of Santorini. I'm not sure who the researchers are you mentioned, but they would not seem to be fully informed on the subject.

As for the Tempest Stela, I cannot deny the possibility that it records indirect climatic influences of the Thera eruption. The timing is somewhat off, but it's possible Ahmose I reigned slightly earlier than relative dating has long held. That date would be 1550 BCE or thereabouts, depending on whose timeline you prefer. As I recall, the Thera eruption is dated to 1628 BCE based on carbon dating. Give or take fifty years, the possibility is there.

That being the case, it's not sensible to look at every climatic upheaval in ancient times as somehow related to Exodus. The fact is, while the Tempest Stela records unusual rains and floods for the Nile Valley, it does not jibe in any realistic sense with the details found in Exodus.

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What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

No, this one is even more removed from Exodus. Hatshepsut's inscription is about the expulsion of the Hyksos. It has nothing to do with the Hebrews, nor is there any recognizable similarity to the biblical tale.

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#35    docyabut2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

Reasons I still hold to the idea that Ahmod Osman`s Akhenaten may have been Moses.

Both had the belief in a single god.

There is evidence of plague at Amarna where some of Akhentan family may had died from.

Both men were of a deformity

Moses was a Egyptain

http://www.spiritweb.../akhenaten.html


#36    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:04 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 08 November 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Cormac already provided information on the geological history of Santorini. I'm not sure who the researchers are you mentioned, but they would not seem to be fully informed on the subject.

As for the Tempest Stela, I cannot deny the possibility that it records indirect climatic influences of the Thera eruption. The timing is somewhat off, but it's possible Ahmose I reigned slightly earlier than relative dating has long held. That date would be 1550 BCE or thereabouts, depending on whose timeline you prefer. As I recall, the Thera eruption is dated to 1628 BCE based on carbon dating. Give or take fifty years, the possibility is there.

That being the case, it's not sensible to look at every climatic upheaval in ancient times as somehow related to Exodus. The fact is, while the Tempest Stela records unusual rains and floods for the Nile Valley, it does not jibe in any realistic sense with the details found in Exodus.



No, this one is even more removed from Exodus. Hatshepsut's inscription is about the expulsion of the Hyksos. It has nothing to do with the Hebrews, nor is there any recognizable similarity to the biblical tale.

Per the article "Radiocarbon-Based Chronology for Dynastic Egypt", a 95 percentile date for Ahmose I would place him between 1570 and 1544 with a median date of 1557. Since the date for Santorini's explosion has been calculated at 1613 +/- 10 BC any connection between Santorini and Egypt would have to have occurred during one of Ahmose I's successor's. Perhaps Kamose or Sequenenre Ta'o II.

http://www.freerepub...t/2142040/posts

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#37    docyabut2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

The three days of darkness of the plague, were the smoke people put in the houses ,trying to get rid of the bugs, smoking them out.:)


#38    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 08 November 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Reasons I still hold to the idea that Ahmod Osman`s Akhenaten may have been Moses.

Both had the belief in a single god.

There is evidence of plague at Amarna where some of Akhentan family may had died from.

Both men were of a deformity.

Moses was a Egyptain.

http://www.spiritweb.../akhenaten.html

Moses had a belief in one god, a Hebrew god. Akhenaten held a belief that Aten was predominant over all, yet there is no evidence that he enforced a one-god belief to any real degree since some individuals seen as having lived at Amarna retained names associated with other Egyptian deities. Thoth being one example.

There is no physical evidence that Akhenaten had a deformity.

Moses was, according to the Bible, a Hebrew raised by Egyptians. That's not the same thing as being an Egyptian.

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#39    docyabut2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:27 PM

there`s no where in egyptain history these plagues could have taken place as told.
The plaques don`t fit as in any time line of a big catastrophic event. It could simplely be plagues of sickness from the epidemic ,lice, frogs dancing in the bellies, water turned red from the dumping of all the bodies, days of darkness, they smoke out their houses for days the ceilings were black from the soot.

The Bubonic Plague means you bleed internally, and your urine has blood in it, could this be what was meant by the ( their )water turned to blood

Edited by docyabut2, 08 November 2012 - 10:33 PM.


#40    docyabut2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

In the second century CE (or AD), a Jewish document called the Seder Olam Rabbah identified the year 1312 BC as the date of the Exodus. All the way down to the present time, that 1312 BC date has continued to be accepted by "orthodox" Rabbis.

That was close to the time right after Akhenaten, 1350 -1334.,and
Ramesses was the pharaoh most responsible for erasing the Amarna Period from history. Where did the Bible story ever get the plagues? There was a epidemic at Amarna the reason for its abandonment

It was my guess that maybe the plagues of the Moses`s exodus were more of a epidemic

When we think of the Black Death or Plague we are transported to the filthy streets fourteenth century London; a city overrun with rats and where hygiene comprised washing once a year. We certainly do not associate such an epidemic with the pristine white streets of the eighteenth dynasty (1350-1334 BCE) city of Tell el Amarna. However archaeological evidence from the workmen village at Amarna suggests that the ancient city may well have been wiped out by an out-of-control pandemic similar to the one that ravished Europe, killing more than 50% of the population.


#41    docyabut2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

Comic there no time in egyptain history that would relate to Moses,then in the time of Akhentan.These egyptian mummies that are found, they are not really sure who was really who. There could have been a son or grand son of akthenten`s father, or a another line  of the Ramesses that wared with Akhentan.


#42    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 08 November 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Comic there no time in egyptain history that would relate to Moses,then in the time of Akhentan.These egyptian mummies that are found, they are not really sure who was really who. There could have been a son or grand son of akthenten`s father, or a another line  of the Ramesses that wared with Akhentan.

Yet there's no evidence, physically or textually, of such being true. Nor is there any evidence for an Egyptian ruler of either the 18th or 19th Dynasties being of non-Egyptian birth. This doesn't help your position at all.

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#43    docyabut2

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe. The largest statue in the Cairo Museum shows Amenhotep III and his family. He and Queen Tiy (pronounced 'Tee') had four daughters and two sons. Akhenaten's brother, Tutmoses was later named high priest of Memphis. The other son, Amenhotep IV (Later to take the name Akhenaten) seemed to be ignored by the rest of the family. He never appeared in any portraits and was never taken to public events. He received no honors. It was as if the God Amun had excluded him. He was rejected by the world for some unknown reason. He was never shown with his family nor mentioned on monuments. Yet his mother favored him.


#44    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:47 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 09 November 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe. The largest statue in the Cairo Museum shows Amenhotep III and his family. He and Queen Tiy (pronounced 'Tee') had four daughters and two sons. Akhenaten's brother, Tutmoses was later named high priest of Memphis. The other son, Amenhotep IV (Later to take the name Akhenaten) seemed to be ignored by the rest of the family. He never appeared in any portraits and was never taken to public events. He received no honors. It was as if the God Amun had excluded him. He was rejected by the world for some unknown reason. He was never shown with his family nor mentioned on monuments. Yet his mother favored him.

The biggest (but not only) flaw in this argument is that there's no evidence that Tiy, as daughter of Yuya and Thuya, was of Hebrew descent for two reasons. 1) There were no Hebrews, as such, in the 14th century BC and 2) Yuya and Thuya were both Egyptian nobles.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#45    Borana

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

Who was MOSES ? Where he lived? Why modern world lost his traces? Who were Jews? Are/were they Semites?Who and what is Shem, Japhet and ham?we can't say egyptians are shemites?why?IS IT ACCURATE to say bible story is historically true? when i suggest kenyan tribes had more jewish element than ASHKANZI or other type of jews , greecian, celtic, ireland...will you say this is improbable?where were practised the best example of perfect DIVINE LAW /human law?IN greece ?best democratic spiritually perfect Gaddaa system in EAST AFRICA?





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