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Problem of Evil

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#121    shadowhive

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I can't stop believing what I believe.  If an atheist believes nothing is after this life, and they say to you that they are glad you find comfort in belief in an afterlife, but then say that they don't believe such and that when you die you die, are they being any less hateful?

The thing about belief is you CAN stop believing what you believe and you can choose.

There's a different between those beliefs. The key part is that you think that afterlife is only or the 'priveledged chosen' where as I (and the atheist you mention) believe in a catch all thing that applies across the board. I'd still feel sorry for him, but less than I feel sorry for you.

Quote

These impressionable people are being preached at every day - through tv, pop-culture, Hollywood, secularism, and more.  Adding in an alternative to all this for them to consider could well be considered as simply an act to square up the ledger between religion and secularism.

The last thing kids need is religion added to all that.

You bought up the bad past experiences I had with christians. Those experiences came from youths who were preached at, whch caused them to harm others as a result. When kids are preached at that's the sort of thing they do, they take such things and run with them. So no, I don't see preaching to kids as being a good thing. First, second and third hand experience all tells me it's a bad thing.

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At the end of the day, I do not believe these people to be lesser beings.  It doesn't even cross an inkling in my mind.  You can believe otherwise, but you would be wrong.  I know me better than you know me.

At the end of the day, you still believe in a god that believes that the non-chosen are lesser than the chosen. You're still ok with a god that treats the non-chosen in a way that would be reprensible otherwise.

It might not cross your mind, but the belief is still there.

Quote

And as with many things you perceive about me, this also is wrong.  Your perception is acknowledged, though not agreed on :tu:

~ Regards, PA

Of course it seems wrong to you. No one wants to admit they've let themselves be blinded, even if it's as plain as the nose on their face. To me from our discussions, that seems to be exactly the case with you. You've not proven me wrong. All youve done is shown that you have enough restraint to act like a decent human outside of church.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#122    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

The thing about belief is you CAN stop believing what you believe and you can choose.

There's a different between those beliefs. The key part is that you think that afterlife is only or the 'priveledged chosen' where as I (and the atheist you mention) believe in a catch all thing that applies across the board. I'd still feel sorry for him, but less than I feel sorry for you.
Fair enough.  In that case, I ask that you keep your pity, I don't need or want it.


View Postshadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

The last thing kids need is religion added to all that.

You bought up the bad past experiences I had with christians. Those experiences came from youths who were preached at, whch caused them to harm others as a result. When kids are preached at that's the sort of thing they do, they take such things and run with them. So no, I don't see preaching to kids as being a good thing. First, second and third hand experience all tells me it's a bad thing.
As a school teacher, one thing I've noticed is that kids can be mean.  If someone is "different", they are going to single them out for negative treatment.  They don't need religion for it.  If someone is fat, or wears glasses, they will be bullied as well.  I once taught at a school with students with behaviour issues, and a "Christian" who was (from everything I saw) taught about love and tolerance, then got something against one of those people at his Youth Group and brought himself and fifty cronies to surround the building just to get at one person he didn't like.  

I'm not trying to minimise your experience.  I'm just saying that kids can be cruel, and being different is going to make it that much worse.  And in saying that, I do agree that teaching kids to hate is absolutely wrong, I would never endorse teaching a child to hate, so the kids you experienced problems with must have been taught how to hate at their religion.  This is not what I am referring to.


View Postshadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

At the end of the day, you still believe in a god that believes that the non-chosen are lesser than the chosen.
Again, your opinion.  I don't agree with it, I don't accept it, and I don't require you to tell me what I believe in.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 31 January 2013 - 02:23 PM.

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#123    Frank Merton

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

1- As spirit entities, there is no sin nature, therefore no possibility to sin.  I'm not just inventing that, this is what is said in the Bible, we will be reborn perfect, no sin, no ability to sin.

2- And this kind of follows on from point #1, but on what basis are you arguing that we have free will?  Especially as new creations (ie, not human, not physical beings) how can we say for certain what our lives will or won't be like?  Who's to say that as these new spirit entities we simply won't have the capacity to rebel.

You are using a lot of words to say that it is not you that gets a reward in Heaven but some robot with your name but no will.


#124    shadowhive

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 31 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

You are using a lot of words to say that it is not you that gets a reward in Heaven but some robot with your name but no will.

Agreed. That doesn't sound like a reward to me.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#125    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yes, that is what I believe, and that is also what I said!  Why bring it up if what I said and what I believe are the exact same thing.


What you said was what prompted  the questions...  

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     Not to the creator of the pot.                 

The pot doesn't have a mind  ( or cannot have ) to question who made it... The human is given the mind to question who made them..... World of difference, which is why the analogy  is useless

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    Because I've seen them say exactly that.                
And many wont say it

Quote

     People always seem to say that Christians "pick and choose" what they like or don't like, and if something doesn't sit right with them then they find a way to change what the text says or ignore it.                
And there always will be so many christians that do in fact do it...    Christianity wouldn't be split more times than enough, if every Christians stuck by the book as it is and agreed with all that is within..    I have seen and heard many cherry pick what suits and dodge what they feel doesn't apply to them...

Example  ( a true one at that )  A few years ago.  I begun to talk about the Sermon On The Mount.   I go on to explain what I felt it meant.. A well known regular Christian came on, ( who you will rarely see much of now )and claimed it didn't apply to them, as Jesus was only talking to one person on the mount at that time of him giving the sermon....  After a five min face palm, I sat thinking, this goes to show you that not every Christian who can come on and tell everyone what the score is, yet they fail to understand parts of their own bible, and they dismiss it, it just doesn't apply to them.. Lets skip ahead !!

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       I would think this disproves that (to some small extent, at least).  I don't like the answers given, I wish they were different.  But wishing it so does not make it so, and because I am a Bible-believing Christian I accept it and incorporate it.             

Indeed you feel you can accept something with no answers  ( Ironically many christians seek the bible for answers ) ..Its not an answer.. I can't picture myself following a faith that tells me I have no right to question it.   What on earth is the point in creating you to have a strong intelligent inquisitive   mind, if you are told not to use it?    You wont be able to answer that one PA, the bible says don't think about it !!   Its like being a drone, or a sheep.. Follow like sheep and ask no questions.. That's how I seriously see it all..

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#126    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I can't stop believing what I believe.

Of course you can, there is abundant evidence that people do it all the time.  Isn't the call to evangelize in Christianity predicated on that fact?

Quote

If an atheist believes nothing is after this life, and they say to you that they are glad you find comfort in belief in an afterlife, but then say that they don't believe such and that when you die you die, are they being any less hateful?

Yes, they are being less hateful, both they and the theist have the same fate, neither is 'better'.  There is no implicit statement in this scenario indicating that some deserve damnation as determined by the ultimate arbiter of good and evil and worthiness and unworthiness.  To me, this is ultimately just yet another contradiction.  It is my understanding that the reason that it is just to punish people for their sins is that ultimately God has written in their heart/soul morality and a sense of right and wrong, even in atheists.  Yet what this god-given morality in my heart is telling me is on too many points in direct opposition to his supposed word in the Bible and how God specifically has acted (and no, 'who are we to question God' is not an answer at all, it's a red herring when assessing whether God is good or not).  To some extent I have to carve out an exception for your specific, less 'fire-and-brimstone' beliefs (is it at least fair to say that the ideas that there is no hell and souls are perhaps destroyed is a minority position within Christianity?), but there certainly is a negativity to, even if I phrase it mildly, 'you are not chosen and are instead damned, and this is just as you deserve it', that is not present in an atheistic mindset.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
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#127    shadowhive

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Fair enough.  In that case, I ask that you keep your pity, I don't need or want it.

Fine.

Quote

As a school teacher, one thing I've noticed is that kids can be mean.  If someone is "different", they are going to single them out for negative treatment.  They don't need religion for it.  If someone is fat, or wears glasses, they will be bullied as well.  I once taught at a school with students with behaviour issues, and a "Christian" who was (from everything I saw) taught about love and tolerance, then got something against one of those people at his Youth Group and brought himself and fifty cronies to surround the building just to get at one person he didn't like.  

I'm not trying to minimise your experience.  I'm just saying that kids can be cruel, and being different is going to make it that much worse.  And in saying that, I do agree that teaching kids to hate is absolutely wrong, I would never endorse teaching a child to hate, so the kids you experienced problems with must have been taught how to hate at their religion.  This is not what I am referring to.

I agree they will pick on those that are different. However I don't see religion doing anything against that. On the contrary, religion is all about making different people act in the same way and crushing difference wherever it's found because it's ungodly or sinful.

Hate, sadly, seems built right into religion. I don't know if they were actively taught to hate by their religion, but I've seen in grown adults (ones that should know better) to use the same reasoning and then quickly add 'oh I'm not being hateful I'm hating the sin not the sinner'. If that's the sort of attitude the adults have, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what kids are being taught too.

That's the problem with introducing kids to religion, because it's not just the love and acceptance, it's the utter nonsense of sin and it's that nonsense that adults use to harm others and kids just do it too. Kid's are simply not mature enough to handle it (then again neither are most adults) and it's better they're not exposed to it at all.

Quote

Again, your opinion.  I don't agree with it, I don't accept it, and I don't require you to tell me what I believe in.

Of course you don't. The problem is you've not proven me wrong.

Edited by shadowhive, 31 January 2013 - 02:39 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#128    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 31 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

You are using a lot of words to say that it is not you that gets a reward in Heaven but some robot with your name but no will.
Not a robot, just an elevated me, a different (yet the same) person who I now am.  A "glorified" me.

Agree or disagree, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm only stating what the Bible says.

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#129    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

What you said was what prompted  the questions...  
Never did I say the passage only referred to two people.  That's that!


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

The pot doesn't have a mind  ( or cannot have ) to question who made it... The human is given the mind to question who made them..... World of difference, which is why the analogy  is useless
You are overlooking that this is an analogy - a parable, if you will.  The focus on this is the creator, not the created.  In a parable, the focus is what is looked at - in this case, it doesn't matter whether the created has a voice of its own, that is not the focus of the parable.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

And many wont say it
Which is why I only said that "some of them" believe it.  Nowhere did I say all, or even most.  Only some.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

And there always will be so many christians that do in fact do it...
True enough.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Indeed you feel you can accept something with no answers  ( Ironically many christians seek the bible for answers ) ..Its not an answer.. I can't picture myself following a faith that tells me I have no right to question it.   What on earth is the point in creating you to have a strong intelligent inquisitive   mind, if you are told not to use it? You wont be able to answer that one PA, the bible says don't think about it !!   Its like being a drone, or a sheep.. Follow like sheep and ask no questions.. That's how I seriously see it all..
It's not that we are discouraged to ask questions, on the contrary we are encouraged to ask questions and seek truth.  It's just that some questions have no answer (at least, no satisfactory answer).

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 31 January 2013 - 02:42 PM.

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#130    redhen

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:44 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Scientifically the greater good cannot be established.  Theologically, though, it can.  The greater good is eternity.  What good is it for a man to gain the whole world but condemn his eternal soul?

And how is it impossible for the Creator to establish heaven/eternity without millions of years of unnecessary pain, suffering and death? There simply was no other method? I can think of several alternatives, and I'm not God (not even close)


#131    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Of course you can, there is abundant evidence that people do it all the time.  Isn't the call to evangelize in Christianity predicated on that fact?
Change in belief only happens after an organic process of change.  It is impossible for someone (anyone) to simply stand up one day and say "For no apparent reason I'm going to change and believe something else today".


View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Yes, they are being less hateful, both they and the theist have the same fate, neither is 'better'.  There is no implicit statement in this scenario indicating that some deserve damnation as determined by the ultimate arbiter of good and evil and worthiness and unworthiness.  To me, this is ultimately just yet another contradiction.  It is my understanding that the reason that it is just to punish people for their sins is that ultimately God has written in their heart/soul morality and a sense of right and wrong, even in atheists.  Yet what this god-given morality in my heart is telling me is on too many points in direct opposition to his supposed word in the Bible and how God specifically has acted (and no, 'who are we to question God' is not an answer at all, it's a red herring when assessing whether God is good or not).  To some extent I have to carve out an exception for your specific, less 'fire-and-brimstone' beliefs (is it at least fair to say that the ideas that there is no hell and souls are perhaps destroyed is a minority position within Christianity?), but there certainly is a negativity to, even if I phrase it mildly, 'you are not chosen and are instead damned, and this is just as you deserve it', that is not present in an atheistic mindset.
Is it "hateful" for a Christian to believe this?  Honestly stop and think on that point - there are many adjectives that could be used instead of "hateful".  Is this truly the most accurate one?

I would argue not.

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#132    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:48 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I agree they will pick on those that are different. However I don't see religion doing anything against that. On the contrary, religion is all about making different people act in the same way and crushing difference wherever it's found because it's ungodly or sinful.
Nice choice of words - "crushing difference" - sounds very alarming.  And while I agree some religions (more correctly, some churches/places of worship and teaching) do promote this, it is by no means a universal trait.  And no, teaching something as "ungodly" does not automatically mean it is therefore hated upon.  No matter how often we argue, this point will never change.

~ PA

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#133    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

View Postredhen, on 31 January 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

And how is it impossible for the Creator to establish heaven/eternity without millions of years of unnecessary pain, suffering and death? There simply was no other method? I can think of several alternatives, and I'm not God (not even close)
Whatever God might have chosen, is irrelevant.  It is what God has chosen.  You may think of several other alternatives but have you truly thought through all the consequences?

How do you know your alternatives sufficiently answer all questions, while teaching us everything God wanted us to learn?  You can't know this.  It's impossible.  I know you may think these alternatives are great, but at the end of the day, I'm glad you're not God (though it's only a movie, see "Bruce Almighty" to get an idea of how a mere human may end up trying to stand in God's shoes for a day or two.

~ PA

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#134    shadowhive

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Nice choice of words - "crushing difference" - sounds very alarming.  And while I agree some religions (more correctly, some churches/places of worship and teaching) do promote this, it is by no means a universal trait.  And no, teaching something as "ungodly" does not automatically mean it is therefore hated upon.  No matter how often we argue, this point will never change.

~ PA

That's because it is alarming. I'm not like you. I don't use subtle double speak to cover that up and I dont try and twist it into being a good thing.

Teaching something is 'ungodly' automatically increases the likelyhood it will be hated on and there is ample proof of this. Even if it's not hated on outright, you don't need to hate to treat people in negative ways and that's always done when something is ungodly. Hate the sin love the sinner is the catch all term that's a prime example of this. It excuses people to treat a person negatively and if questioned it's not done out of hate for the person, regardless of what harm is actually done. I think your belief is rather naive, especially since you've said before you'd be ok with using that line of thought.

Teaching things are ungodly doesn't help anything. It doesn't improve love, tolerance or acceptance. Quite the opposite.

Edited by shadowhive, 31 January 2013 - 03:01 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#135    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Never did I say the passage only referred to two people.  That's that!


I never said you did, and that's that .!!

Quote

   You are overlooking that this is an analogy

No I am not..  The only similar thing in the analogy is both have someone who made them. .  What sticks out like a sore thumb is -  The pot doesn't and cant do to its maker what humans can to their maker..

Quote

The focus on this is the creator, not the created.   

The creator will tell its creation not to question him... The potter  cannot do the same with a pot....Yet the bible uses a potter and his pot not being able to question its maker Or doesn't ask its maker..   We know a pot cant ask... we know humans can . useless..

Quote

   It's not that we are discouraged to ask questions, on the contrary we are encouraged to ask questions and seek truth.

Then that must be in the contradicting part of the bible, for it sure as heck isn't in Romans 9...Romans 9 tells you - Who are you to question god?    If I said to you -  Who are you to question me?  That is arrogance and a way for me to dodge questions I cannot answer

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 31 January 2013 - 03:14 PM.

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