290 replies to this topic

[SlimJim22]

There is a great deal to make us think that this was the site from which the legends of Eden derived. First temple by a stretch but man at this time was advancing and had been doing so for 20,000 years. Personally I look at the Lionman statue from Germany dated to 30,000 BP and the Lascaux caves as the main evidence. Man had higher cognitive functions but Gobleki tepe is the first time we see man working together to produce such a site. It was no doubt ritual but it was not a habitat to my knowledge. This means that tribes would travel their at an appointed time but it was not used all year round.

Lots of other questions spring to mind about but keeping with Eden. Kain and Abel is a story of the hunter-gatherer and the farmer. Kain, the farmer killed his brother and so the world was populated by farmers. However, there was another son and that was Seth. I think this refers to a surviving class of shamans or priests who did retain the ethos of the hunter-gatherer to some degree. When I say hunter-gatherer this is not to say they were simpler but that they were more confortable living as part of nature rather than trying to dominate it. Andrew Collins has some excellent points on this.

What was the relationship between the centres of Göbekli Tepe, Nevali Çori and Çatal Huyuk?

The main relationship between key PPN sites such as Göbekli Tepe and Nevali Çori is the fact that their layout, design and art are the same. They were constructed by the same unique race of people. They connect with Çatal Hüyük because this was a latter development of the same high culture, and so this city - excavated first in the early 1960s by British archaeologist James Mellaart - can tell us much about the earlier cults at places such as Göbekli Tepe and Nevali Çori. Like, for example, the Neolithic cult of the dead. At Çatal Hüyük we find frescoes of vultures accompanying the soul of the deceased into the next world, and also of shamans taking the form of vultures for presumed shamanic practices, such as contacting or journeying into the other world. Since statues of birdmen, as well as those of vultures, have been found at both Göbekli Tepe and Nevali Çori, we can be pretty sure that the same cult existed here as far back as 11,500-10,000 BP.


Could you tell me about the stone Karibu that guards the tree of life? This reminds me a lot of the cherub that guards the Ark of the Covenant and a similar image found also among the Babylonians. Is Göbekli Tepe really the origin of those biblical symbols?

Karibu and Cherubim are the same - angelic beings, and ultimately their roots can be traced back to memories of the priestly or ruling elite at places such as Göbekli Tepe. Clearly, there is more to the story of the cherub that guards the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, for it might also relate to either archaeoastronomy or a global catastrophe around the end of the last Ice Age. Much more knowledge about this epoch is contained in the Book of Enoch and Book of Giants, both found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and probably first recorded down in the region of Southeast Turkey, where Abraham, the ancestor of the Hebrew race is said to have come from. A cave shrine marking his alleged place of birth can be visited in Sanliurfa (Urfa, the ancient city of ancient Edessa), where various PPN sites have been discovered. There is powerful evidence, supported by David Rohl, to demonstrate that Sanliurfa, ancient Urfa, was the original Ur of the Chaldees, where Abraham is said to have been born. It is very possible that the story of the Watchers, as found in the Book of Enoch, was carried out of Upper Mesopotamia, the true site of Chaldea, when Abraham and his family, the ancestors of the Israelites and Jews, set out from the city of Harran on their epic journey to Canaan, the future land of Israel.

http://www.andrewcol...e_interview.htm

Other interesting things are that apparently there are deeper and older sites beneath the temple. Someone went to a great deal of effort around 8000 bce to bury the temple. Was this to protect it from the profane or to preserve it for posterity. Also there is some suggestion that there are constellation maps carved in the stone. They may not be accurate but this guy makes a good case.

http://timothystepha...om/gobekli.html

Finally what do people thing on the reason for the 'T' shapes? Sky burials or sacrificial alters or a representation of a meeting between heaven and earth. Maybe it is a muchroom.  

Edited by SlimJim22, 31 January 2011 - 09:06 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

There is a great deal to make us think that this was the site from which the legends of Eden derived.

Not unless one totally disregards what the Bible has to say about Eden and its location, which would put it in or around the Shatt al-Arab.

cormac

[SlimJim22]

cormac mac airt, on 31 January 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

Not unless one totally disregards what the Bible has to say about Eden and its location, which would put it in or around the Shatt al-Arab.

cormac

Fair enough. However, if we disregard Genesis as be true to the facts then it is possible that it was an assimiliation of tradition from multiple areas. The burying of the temple seems significant as does the conflict between hunter-gatherers and pastoralists. A third group of shamans or priests would also fit with what we would expect if we take the logical and not the literal interpretation of Genesis. What date was Atlit Yam inhabited? I think it was after Catal Huyuk but I could be wrong. Either way there were those who began building walled villages and farmed the land and those who wandered about following the stars conducting rituals. Obviously there would be overlap but that part does seem to match with Genesis imo.

In keeping with the theme of cosmic rays of other threads we should remeber the amount of cave dwellings in Turkey. If this was something that went back to as far as Gobleki Tepe then it may explain why man was inspired to create these great works. That is if you accept the theories of Andrew Collins on cosmic rays and the potnetial for higher thought attirubuted to them. If we consider they may have mapped the constellations here and in Lascaux then we should not the existence of Cygnus in both. Maybe it is irrelevant maybe not but it is a coincidence and probably more than that.

[cormac mac airt]

If you disregard Genesis then there is nothing on which to base any claim of knowledge concerning Eden on. As that's where the story originated. It's as meaningless as ignoring Plato's claims of the location of Atlantis, yet claiming that somewhere else is actually it.  

Atlit Yam is c.7600 BC - 6300 BC.

cormac

[SlimJim22]

cormac mac airt, on 31 January 2011 - 10:40 PM, said:

If you disregard Genesis then there is nothing on which to base any claim of knowledge concerning Eden on. As that's where the story originated. It's as meaningless as ignoring Plato's claims of the location of Atlantis, yet claiming that somewhere else is actually it.  

Atlit Yam is c.7600 BC - 6300 BC.

cormac

Sorry I didn't mean diregard it entirely but don't take it literally. The figures are metaphors but the events did happen just over a much greater period of time. Genesis some how manages to put them in microcosm. Thus by the Genesis definition there are multiple Edens. The first imo being Botswana where serpent worship originated and where man evolved.

The next when man began wearing clothes. Following that we probably have the conflict of hunter-gatherers and pastoralists and the surviving shamans that may have assisted in cultural development. Following that we probably get to Edin of Sumer where it meant something like fertile plains. The last part of Genesis being about the rejection of human sacrifice and the problems associated with polytheism. Hope that makes sense because it seems to fit my interpretation of the first book of the OT.

The other major symbol of Genesis is the snake and the tree. The coils could refer to DNA or to kundalani or to the life cycle of mushrooms. Maybe even the volution of man from the reptilian brain to what we now have. Ultimately what is baffling about this site is that we cannot easily place it with any know culture. Natufians maybe but were they organized enough to pull it off?

[paygan]

I'd firstly like to make the point that Gobekli Tepe was not built at 10,000BC as per the title of this thread. The PPNA settlement has been dated only slightly prior to 9000 BC. There are remains of smaller houses from the PPNE and some few epipalaeolithic finds as well. There are a number of radio carbon dates: 8960 – 9559 – 9452 - 8430. While the settlement formally belongs to the earliest Neolithic (PPNA), up to now no traces of domesticated plants or animals have been found. The inhabitants were hunter gatherers.

I aslo have to take issue with Cormac's statement that there are no sources of "Eden" outside the Bible, for there are various accounts of the Garden of Eden outside the Bible, including the Koran. Eden itself comes from the Sumerian word "Edin" meaning "plain" or "steppe".

The Nippur Tablets, including the Barton Cylinder are most important source documents describing the location of the Garden of Eden, and it's inhabitants, the first Sumerian Pantheon (An, Ninkharsag, Enlil & Enki). These were dug up in the foundations of the temple and library at Nippur by John Henry Haynes in 1898 and translated by George Aaron Barton. These are the oldest religious/story texts in the world, pre-dating the pyramid texts by at least half a century.

Another is the Slavonic Book of Enoch 2 produced around the 2nd century BC from materials with a much older tradition,  discovered by Canon Charles and translated by his friend Dr Morfill, the Professor of Slavonic Studies at Oxford. It is from Morfill's work that we have the clearest accounts of the Garden of Eden.

Also we have an Akkadian work, Atra-hasis, Tablet 1 which was copied by a scribe called Ku-aya, in the reign of Ammi-saduqa about 1635 B.C., from non-existant, earlier material. It is indicated that Ku-aya translated an earlier Sumerian tablet into Akkadian. Translations of the Akkadian text have been made by Lambert and Millard, two Oxford scholars following in the footsteps of Canon Charles.

Atra-hasis tells the story of a rebellion of the workers building the Great Watercourse in The Garden of Eden and of them surrounding Enlil's Great House in a mob with tools raised. It then tells the story of the Annunaki council creating "salaried man" and causing a massive rift in our development from utalitarian to capitalist objectives as a race.

From this we get various legends of "fallen angels".

The starting point of the agricultural revolution is thought by many to be 'Eden', which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.

Inescapable evidence that Anatolia being a bit too North include the the development of agriculture at Jericho before this, cultivated crops are also found starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC. Cicer arietinum L. (chickpea) and Vicia faba L. (faba bean, broad bean or horse bean) were found in late 10th millennium b.p. levels at Tell el-Kerkh. Cultivated figs were also dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon at Ohalo II, dated to 9,500-9,300 by Kislev et al not far from Kharsag / Eden.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

I also have to take issue with Cormac's statement that there are no sources of "Eden" outside the Bible,

While I should have made myself clearer, I never said there were no sources outside of the Bible. Although the story, as it is most commonly known, originates with the Hebrews. The Koran, however, dates to well after the earliest attested textual examples of Genesis and is not the origin for the story itself. In any case, none of the above originates in Northern Mesopotamia/Anatolia.

cormac

[SlimJim22]

Some superb points ther Paygan. What a way to make an entrance. Welcome to the board   Great information in those links. I should be able to use some of it elsewhere. You seem like a very knowledeable guy on Sumer and many matters. Would love to pick your brains sometime on many issues but for now I'll keep it brief.

What do you know of claims about structures beneath Gobleki Tepe?

Do you see the Elohim and Watchers as spiritual beings or aliens or shamans and priests who may have tapped into some higher brain function maybe? I can't think of many other explanations to how we got the theologies behind ancient cultures but it sounds like you know more than me.

There are more things that mystify me about Gobleki Tepe but that is enough. If Enoch identifies Mt Hermon with Eden then Anatolia is on the doorstep in real terms compared to the other possibilities we have. It makes as much if not more sense than the alternatives.

[paygan]

SlimJim22, on 01 February 2011 - 11:04 PM, said:

What do you know of claims about structures beneath Gobleki Tepe?

Nothing I am afraid. But if there were any, it would be interesting to know if they were dated pre-Younger Dryas.

SlimJim22, on 01 February 2011 - 11:04 PM, said:

Do you see the Elohim and Watchers as spiritual beings or aliens or shamans and priests who may have tapped into some higher brain function maybe? I can't think of many other explanations to how we got the theologies behind ancient cultures but it sounds like you know more than me.

I think you are so correct with the "priests with higher brain function" here SlimJim that I feel I need to try and explain another mystery at you, but you might have to bear with some orignal research here if you want an explanation, so bear with my "Myrrh Theory", which assumes that the word "Myrrh" has changed it's meaning over time.

You've picked the right bit of my brain here. Specifically the pineal, which produces an unusual chemical called dimethyl-tryptamine, which in turn promotes higher brain function. There is an large % of this chemical in the reddish colour resin of the Acacia Tree, the wood of the Ark and Tabernacle of Moses and mentioned specifically in that context in relation to "Myrrh".

The word "Myrrh" in Hebrew simply means "bitter" and "red tree sap". If you burn dimethyl-tryptamine, it allegedly makes a bitter smell. Today's "Myrrh" from Commiphora Myrrha is used as an incense for it's sweet smell.

Assuming that these priests could concoct annointing oils containing resin from Acacia, possibly even spyrgic extracting the dimethyltryptamine "after the art of the apothecary - Exodus 30:25" is certainly not outside the realm of possibility. It would help make sense of it's use in the context of Eden below:

"Then the Lord said to Micha-el: ‘Take Enoch and trip him of his own clothes; anoint him with fine oil, and dress him like ourselves’, and Micha-el did as he was told. He stripped me of my clothes, and rubbed me over with a wonderful oil like dew – with the scent of myrrh – which shone like a sunbeam. And I looked at myself, and I was like one of the others; there was no difference, and all my fear and trembling left me.

Then the Lord called one of his Archangels named Uri-el, who was the most learned of them all, and said: ‘Bring out the books from my library, and give Enoch a pen for speedy writing, and tell him what the books are about.’ And Uri-el hurried and brought me the books, smelling myrrh, and handed me a pen." - Enoch 2 XX1:8-12

"Myrrh Theory" is not entirely original research, but I like to think develops that of Professor Benny Shannon of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, who wrote a paper entitled Biblical Entheogens : A Speculative Hypothesis. Here he makes the Acacia connection but sadly merges it's use with that of modern South America - neglecting that it's use thousands of years and thousands of miles apart might have been vastly different.

SlimJim22, on 01 February 2011 - 11:04 PM, said:

There are more things that mystify me about Gobleki Tepe but that is enough. If Enoch identifies Mt Hermon with Eden then Anatolia is on the doorstep in real terms compared to the other possibilities we have. It makes as much if not more sense than the alternatives.

Agreed too, Agriculture likely tore through Anatolia leaving loads of archaeological things to find like Catal Huyuk from around c. 7,500 B.C. on it's way to Europe.

Why Gobekli Tepe here around c. 9,000 B.C. though is still a question. I wouldn't be suprised it was built on something or somewhere to commemorate/celebrate ancestors or something pre-younger dryas.

Edited by paygan, 02 February 2011 - 11:32 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Specifically the pineal, which produces an unusual chemical called dimethyl-tryptamine, which in turn promotes higher brain function.

That's not in evidence as being true.

Quote

Most stated that the pineal could transform serotonin into 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine, and then make that into 5-methyoxy-N,N-dimethyltrptamine. Alas, no references were provided to support Most's description of pineal catabolism.

.....

From Dr. Rick Strassman, himself:

"I did my best in the DMT book to differentiate between what is known, and what I was conjecturing about (based upon what is known), regarding certain aspects of DMT dynamics. However, it's amazing how ineffective my efforts seem to have been. So many people write me, or write elsewhere, about DMT, and the pineal, assuming that the things I conjecture about are true. When I was writing the book, I thought I was clear enough, and repeating myself would have gotten tedious.

"We don't know whether DMT is made in the pineal. I muster a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting a reason to look long and hard at the pineal, but we do not yet know.

DMT and the Pineal: Fact or Fiction?

cormac

[SlimJim22]

cormac mac airt, on 04 February 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

That's not in evidence as being true.



DMT and the Pineal: Fact or Fiction?

cormac

DMT fits better in the other thread but the scientists are not ruling out the pineal gland producing DMT they just do not have direct evidence for it yet. There is still so much about the brain to learn.

If it is linked with dreams or prophetic seizures then maybe ritual sites like Gobekli tepe do reveal some important things about our prehistory and the emergence of civilization. I think it was as much of an astronimcal obsevravtory as it was a site of ritual.

http://www.gobeklitepe.info/news.html

I can't find anything on the sonar scans of even older structures. Maybe I dreamt them but it does fall into the era of that female shaman buried with birds in Israel.

http://archaeologyne...easting-by.html

[the L]

@SlimJim
Kain was a farmer and Abel was hunter? Can you tell me more about third brother?
How do you see Elohim and Watchers?

@paygan
Hi paygan,

I respect your claims and thanks for links but why all other websites and articles say that Gobekli Tepe was built 12 000-10 000 BC?

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

DMT fits better in the other thread but the scientists are not ruling out the pineal gland producing DMT they just do not have direct evidence for it yet. There is still so much about the brain to learn.

Which means that any claims presenting it as factual, such as the earlier attempt in this thread, are in error and therefore invalid. The earlier attempt wasn't presented as speculation, but as a verifiable fact. It is not.

cormac

[SlimJim22]

the L, on 05 February 2011 - 09:44 PM, said:

@SlimJim
Kain was a farmer and Abel was hunter? Can you tell me more about third brother?
How do you see Elohim and Watchers?

@paygan
Hi paygan,

I respect your claims and thanks for links but why all other websites and articles say that Gobekli Tepe was built 12 000-10 000 BC?

It was Seth who returned to the Garden when Adam was dying for the sacred oil of anointing. I figure he was an early priest or shaman. There were gnostic christians called Sethians who are supposed to have followed his example.

[the L]

SlimJim22, on 05 February 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:

It was Seth who returned to the Garden when Adam was dying for the sacred oil of anointing.

Source?

SlimJim22, on 05 February 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:

I figure he was an early priest or shaman. There were gnostic christians called Sethians who are supposed to have followed his example.

Sethians? Never heard.

Please Slim be yourself. Im not learned to see "one sentence SlimJim."

EDIT: Okay. I found it.

Edited by the L, 05 February 2011 - 10:37 PM.