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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#541    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:53 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 September 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:




Free me from this dream, please.

Help...

:P
.
Sorry, not me.

I can add to the nightmare though... B)


Because it sounds alot like when I could also place her and the Europeans in the Canaries in the OLB thread. The Lady of the Underworld, the Lady of Hel, the Lady who guards the gates of Hel oops the Underworld.

I just burnt myself earlier and cursed "friggin' hell", you know, like ****g hell but nicer to say in front of the children...so then I realised what I said, Frigg In Hel. A curse word to a Christian based people. But I think actually there is more than one underworld. That is, huge disasters. There is 2 at least, maybe 3, all in the Western Ocean area up to the North Sea, since Atlantis does have a 3 ringed structure.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#542    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:51 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 30 September 2010 - 04:55 AM, said:

The Bronze Age in the Aegean runs from c.3000 BC to 1300BC.

Triremes belong to the Bronze Age. Evidence for the earliest sea craft dates no earlier than c.6000 BC and were one person boats.

From Critias:



Brass at its earliest dates to the Bronze Age.

In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a Chariot.



Bronze is a metal alloy. The Bronze Age is a period in ancient history from c.3000 BC to c.1300 BC. It's the period in time that's being discussed, not the metal.

cormac
I know when the Bronze Age is and I know they are meaning this time frame, my point is, no Bronze is mentioned, mostly gold, silver and orichalcum, which is pointed out to have been mined from the ground as is.

Brass: However, isolated examples of copper-zinc alloys are known in China from as early as the 5th Millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

Trireme, a Greek word for any sort of warship by Plato's day. I agree this is one of the hardest hurdles but again, it doesn't have to be a 3 tiered literal Trireme. Again, the oldest boats are unknown and many are probably lost under the sea in sand and time and age by now anyway.

Also, quite honestly, I think Plato has probably taken some poetic license with the story he has heard, since he does take the effort to add the word 'nearly' in.

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon,
http://classics.mit....to/critias.html

Which reminds me Solon wrote this down and was going to write a poem, the version given would actually be quite poetic itself no doubt, so it could be Solon, not Plato that has embellished it in the first place.


In my opinion just because we can't find a Trireme, said to be imported into Greece by Corinthians, that is Jason and all the sailors of the myths, it shouldn't mean we should dismiss the entire story he has given. I don't go out of my way to dismiss this and that as it does and doesn't fit but can see how his use of adding the word trireme for warship and then warship as an interpretation of what would have been given in the Egyptian telling of the story as fitting.


It's clearly said that Athena/Neith the same settled Sais after Athens, which really goes against the trend of Egypt being so old, Memphis is Aegyptus in old works. The Argive genealogy gives us a hint that this might be true. The flooding of Europe c. 9000BC may have driven them out and they headed into Africa. They may have been the people who settled around the areas of Memphis and then also headed into Libya or Western Europe and settled in the Delta, Sais to be precise.

Is the flood of Attica that Plato speaks of, the one where it washed the top off the Acropolis responsible for a migration out of Europe to Egypt c.9000BC I wonder...Sais and Memphis were started by Greeks according to most stories and God myths.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#543    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:27 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 09:51 AM, said:

I know when the Bronze Age is and I know they are meaning this time frame, my point is, no Bronze is mentioned, mostly gold, silver and orichalcum, which is pointed out to have been mined from the ground as is.

Brass: However, isolated examples of copper-zinc alloys are known in China from as early as the 5th Millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

Trireme, a Greek word for any sort of warship by Plato's day. I agree this is one of the hardest hurdles but again, it doesn't have to be a 3 tiered literal Trireme. Again, the oldest boats are unknown and many are probably lost under the sea in sand and time and age by now anyway.

Also, quite honestly, I think Plato has probably taken some poetic license with the story he has heard, since he does take the effort to add the word 'nearly' in.

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon,
http://classics.mit....to/critias.html

Which reminds me Solon wrote this down and was going to write a poem, the version given would actually be quite poetic itself no doubt, so it could be Solon, not Plato that has embellished it in the first place.


In my opinion just because we can't find a Trireme, said to be imported into Greece by Corinthians, that is Jason and all the sailors of the myths, it shouldn't mean we should dismiss the entire story he has given. I don't go out of my way to dismiss this and that as it does and doesn't fit but can see how his use of adding the word trireme for warship and then warship as an interpretation of what would have been given in the Egyptian telling of the story as fitting.


It's clearly said that Athena/Neith the same settled Sais after Athens, which really goes against the trend of Egypt being so old, Memphis is Aegyptus in old works. The Argive genealogy gives us a hint that this might be true. The flooding of Europe c. 9000BC may have driven them out and they headed into Africa. They may have been the people who settled around the areas of Memphis and then also headed into Libya or Western Europe and settled in the Delta, Sais to be precise.

Is the flood of Attica that Plato speaks of, the one where it washed the top off the Acropolis responsible for a migration out of Europe to Egypt c.9000BC I wonder...Sais and Memphis were started by Greeks according to most stories and God myths.

As the only reason you, I or anyone else even talks about Atlantis is because Plato mentions it in his dialogues, we don't get to pick and choose what we WANT to be relevant, nor do we get to reinterpret what he said to suit our fancy. What he wrote is all there is and it's descriptive of a Bronze Age culture. Anything else is someone else's story.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#544    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:32 AM

Short of time but I've been thinking more on a eastern origin. Matlock is up his old tricks. Don't take it too seriously.

http://www.lost-civi...atlantis-2.html

I may have found an egyptian connection to. What d'ya think Puzz? I need more time to go through it but the mention of the primordial mound is key.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatenen

I am also thinking that Plato uses Atlas as an archetypal dying god, ransom or sacrifice. He holds back the destruction and sacrifices himself. Maybe the horse sacrifice really does hark bacl to such an ancient event or maybe it is allegorical.

http://www.atlan.org...cles/sacrifice/

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#545    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:32 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 30 September 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

As the only reason you, I or anyone else even talks about Atlantis is because Plato mentions it in his dialogues, we don't get to pick and choose what we WANT to be relevant, nor do we get to reinterpret what he said to suit our fancy. What he wrote is all there is and it's descriptive of a Bronze Age culture. Anything else is someone else's story.

cormac
Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages.

I think it's possible for the story to be "true according to tradition" and that Solon may have embellished it in his notes that became the fanciful story told at Apaturia, which is after all, where Critias said he really remembered it from.

I doubt the 'poem' sung at this festival was the same as the Egyptians told Solon word for word.

I do however think the bones and most of it are truth according to how the Egyptians knew it.

Crit. Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind, and one in particular, greater than all the rest. This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.

Soc. Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

Crit. I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion. One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet.

And what was the tale about, Critias? said Amynander.
About the greatest action which the Athenians ever did, and which ought to have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of time and the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us.

Tell us, said the other, the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard this veritable tradition.


Critias, the young has heard him own grandfather tell the story when he was 10 at Apaturia, so since this was a poem of Solon's, which had not gone out of fashion at that time, you could expect at that telling it was quite far from what the words were that actually came out of the priests mouth when he told Solon in Egypt.

Plato is not in the story, so he is really telling us in a 3rd person style his own ideas or is he telling us of a story his friend Critias had told him and he used it when he wrote these narratives...

My own opinion is that he got it from numerous sources. Plato himself had been taught in Egypt, he would have been aware of Solon and any of his works and his laws, he may have known young Critias who also bought up this story at some time or another and that is how he had heard it but maybe not the only time he heard about it. Plato is apparently quite old when he writes this but he has Socrates in it, so we shouldn't take at face value how Plato heard the story as said in the narratives, it's the ideals Socrates wanted to present imo. Diogenes of Sinope may have even had a hand in it's conception for Plato.

What is it? A lesson, an allegory lesson, for who? For what, his students? Yes?
It's unfinished, so they say, or is it?
I say it's finished.
What else is it's purpose but to get us to ask ourselves the answer...?

What Zeus spake...

What did Zeus speak? That is your topic for today kids.

Plato isn't going to tell us the answer, that would be cheating.




People say, if it was there they would have written about it, not necessarily.

About the greatest action which the Athenians ever did, and which ought to have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of time and the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#546    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:17 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry, not me.

I can add to the nightmare though... B)


Because it sounds alot like when I could also place her and the Europeans in the Canaries in the OLB thread. The Lady of the Underworld, the Lady of Hel, the Lady who guards the gates of Hel oops the Underworld.

I just burnt myself earlier and cursed "friggin' hell", you know, like ****g hell but nicer to say in front of the children...so then I realised what I said, Frigg In Hel. A curse word to a Christian based people. But I think actually there is more than one underworld. That is, huge disasters. There is 2 at least, maybe 3, all in the Western Ocean area up to the North Sea, since Atlantis does have a 3 ringed structure.

LOL, did you check this link http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=frig ? And that's kind of an official site, but if I post what it says, 'there will be stars'...

Btw, it would be nice if the ancient Meso Americans had a mythical land called 'Morning Land'.

Europe is said to have gotten it's name by the Greek 'Europa', but another explanation says it got it's name from the Semitic word for 'evening', Erev.

And... are you suggesting there must be 3 underworlds because Atlantis City had 3 rings???


#547    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:23 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 29 September 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:

I feel your pain, Abramelin. The more one adheres to charlatans like Blavatsky and Cayce and their ilk, the farther from reality one gets.

Before I proceed, what indeed is an "'Aat"? I probably missed it but reviewed the page in your link and didn't spot it.

I've seen wackadoo ideas applied to "Amenti," too. The word is usually transliterated as imntt and in a generic sense means "west," as in the cardinal direction. But as your research pointed out, in a ritual and religious sense it was a reference to the destination of deceased people--the land of the dead. It's true that most ancient Egyptian cemeteries were situated on the west side of the Nile (not all but most), and this is true going back into prehistory, also. This is of course tied in with the path of the sun--the journey Re took in bringing the sun through the sky each day--so from the beginning it appears the Egyptians associated the west, where the sun died each night, with the underworld.

In one sense Imentet (how I prefer to spell it) represents a physical location: the necropolis in the west.  More importantly, however, it represents the spiritual plane of existence where all Egyptians went after they had died. At the same time it does indeed represent the goddess by the same name, who personified the west. As your research indicated, she could be a goddess unto herself or closely associated with a more prominent goddess, most particularly either Isis or Hathor. Your research mentioned the iconography of the goddess Imentet, and here's one way she is depicted in Books of the Dead.

That's it in a nutshell. Your contribution explains much of the rest. The important thing for everyone to realize and understand, the inane nonsense of fruitcakes aside, is that the Egyptian Imentet is in no way, shape, or form related to Atlantis!

The Egyptian xnty-imntw (Khentyimentu) has rather obscure origins but you explained it pretty well. This god does seem originally to have been a separate and individual canid or jackal god, and from the nome of Abydos. This is also where Anubis came from, of course, and Anubis was probably the original primary lord of the dead of that region. Osiris came along much later--our earliest evidence for him in Egyptian religion does not appear until mid- to late Dynasty 5. Anubis seems to have assumed many of the roles of Khentyimentu as "foremost of the Westerners," but after Osiris' cult grew in popularity, Osiris also took on this epithet. You can see "Khentyimentu" appearing in the titles of both Anubis and Osiris, although in time it was Osiris who most often claimed the title; xnty-sH-nTr (Khenty-seh-netjer), "He who is before the divine booth," became one of Anubis' primary epithets.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Plato's tale of Atlantis. In the clear light of day, I have to stress it again: Atlantis is simply not part of Egyptian tradition in any form. For those who doubt me, by all means feel free to do so. But instead of merely doubting me, please provide definitive evidence to contradict my position on this. ;)

Thanks Kmt.

Btw, you said you didn't spot 'Aat' in my links, but it's there (the Theosophical stuff):



Amenti, Amentet (Egyptian) The underworld (Tuat), the hidden place or secret region. The 15th or last house (Aat) of the Tuat, called Amentet-nefert (beautiful Amenti) and described as the dwelling place of the gods, where they live upon cakes and ale -- in this respect similar to the Scandinavian Valhalla, the heaven world or devachan. The afterworlds were also referred to as Sekhet-hetep or -hetepet (the fields of peace), called in Greece the Elysian Fields, under the dominion of Osiris, lord of Amenti. Some of the texts speak of Amenti as situated far to the north of Egypt, although it is more commonly referred to as the Silent Land of the West. Other texts place it either below or above the earth, and the deceased is pictured as needing a ladder to ascend to the region.



The deceased, entering the domain as a khu, performs the same activities that he did on earth: plowing, reaping, sailing his boat, and making love. On entering Amenti, Anubis conducts the soul to the hall of Osiris where it is judged by the 42 judges and its heart is weighed against the feather of truth. If the soul passes the test, it goes to the fields of Aalu.



If the names of the 15 Aats, the 7 Arrets (circles), the 21 Pylons, as well as the gods and guardians of these domains are all known, the deceased is enabled to pass from one mansion to the other, and finally to enter the Night Boat of the Sun, which passes through the Tuat on its way to arise in the heavens. The shades who miss this boat, the unprogressed egos, must remain in the afterworld or kama-loka, while those who enter the boat are carried to the heaven world or devachan where they wander about until they return to earth for rebirth.



This refers to the passing from world to world by the ego proficient in knowledge of the "names," and thereafter entering the secret or invisible pathways to the sun. The knowledge of the names indicates spiritual, intellectual, and psychic development, by which the ego of the defunct is no longer attracted to the lower spheres, but having knowledge of them correctly answers the challenges and thereafter follows the attraction upwards and onwards.


http://www.experienc...ival.com/amenti


#548    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:56 PM

Slim, to be honest, I'm not sure on the masks or India. The Tatenan link I did get into before, definitely an Underworld of a kind.

It's interesting what Homer has Hera say:

Hera mentions twice in Iliad book xiv her intended journey "to the ends of the generous earth on a visit to Oceanus, whence the gods have risen, and Tethys our mother who brought me up kindly in their own house."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus

Whence the Gods have risen.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#549    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 01:12 PM

Quote

I think it's possible for the story to be "true according to tradition" and that Solon may have embellished it in his notes that became the fanciful story told at Apaturia, which is after all, where Critias said he really remembered it from.

What tradition? There is absolutely no evidence of the story existing prior to Plato's telling nor, again, that Solon even knew anything about it.

Quote

I do however think the bones and most of it are truth according to how the Egyptians knew it.

Except that there isn't any evidence that the Egyptians knew it, by any name. Not in the Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom nor the New Kingdom.

The only reason to take the story as fact is because you want it to be.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#550    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 01:17 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 September 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

Nice points there Abe. Generated lots of thoughts but sorry they are a bit all over the place. It makes me think of that well in the graveyard and the sycamore tree that grows from it. The sycamore being the symbol of Neith. So on the one Amenti could be the literal underworld caverns they may or may not exist or it could mean the direction of the west where the ancetors migrated from the Sahara. Both are equally plausable.

The dog connection is interesting because just as Cerebrus is the guardian in shamanism there is often a dog guide. Take the story of Cu Cuhlain as an example but I'm sure there are others. There is also that mummy from Libya with a dog artefact of some kind. Was Anubis the guardian or the guide? I can't remember.

I also considered the Vedic Patala as that too is the underworld.

The lowest realm is called Patala or Nagaloka, the region of the Nagas, ruled by Vasuki. Here live several Nagas with many hoods. Each of their hood is decorated by a jewel, whose light illuminates this realm.[3][4][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patala

Nothing else really fitted with what you were saying unfortunately but any connection would have had to travel a long way and would be elaborated upon in time. Still I'll leave that one I think.

Here's a link with a prehistoric timeline of Africa. Not sure how accurate it is but it's worth a look.

http://wysinger.home.../badarians.html

You may like this next one. Lots of images of petroglyphs from around the world. I guess it highlight how similar imagery can arise without diffusion. Particularly as it regards shamanism as it could be a third source of inspiration.

http://droushka.blog...-paintings.html

I was looking for some lead on the bird feathers but feather cloaks are common amongst all types of shamanism. I think it highly likely that this is where the image of wings and angels originally came from. The pole with the feather atop smacks of a axis mundi symbol. Some symbols are just universal I guess. Good link on Eliade and it mentions the "Lady of the Depths".

http://www.elfhill.c...tings/lleu.html

I think your suggestion is a good one though Abe. As the desert advanced it would make sense that this became the land of the dead or underworld. Not sure why we find the symbols we do but they are rarely isolated in their meanings. Life and death are universal concepts as are animals and plant life. I suspect Plato was experienced in deciphering symbols and wove a complex plot of his own. He obviously meant something when he spoke of Atlas bearing the burden of the heavens or whatever he says but perhaps he was careful not to use symbols that would make it too obvious. The symbolism seems quite un-egyptian imo. Ok there is importance put on bulls but that is common to the entire region. No dogs or ladies either. Sorry for the rather pointless post. I better go read some more links Swede gave me.

Thanks for the links, Jim. I particularly like the one with the petroglyphs.

Well, Kmt already said Amenti didn't have anything to do with some mythical land, Atlantis or not, but I had been thinking in the same line as I did with Nehalennia, a goddess who probably carried the name of an old land: the land disappeared, but the name stayed and no one remembers what it originally stood for.

Btw, Kmt preferred different vowels for Amenti, but it apppears to me that when Amenti is spelled the way I did (and many other do), that it then sounds a lot like the Germanic 'abend' or evening (in Dutch it's 'avond', pronounced 'aahvnt'). But let's not go into that, lol.

--

EDIT:

I forgot to say that I also like this link, http://www.elfhill.c...ngs/brigid.html , which I got from one of the other links you posted, http://www.elfhill.c...tings/lleu.html .

Made me think of those 'apples' we talked about in the thread about the Oera Linda Book...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 September 2010 - 01:24 PM.


#551    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 01:48 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 12:56 PM, said:

Slim, to be honest, I'm not sure on the masks or India. The Tatenan link I did get into before, definitely an Underworld of a kind.

It's interesting what Homer has Hera say:

Hera mentions twice in Iliad book xiv her intended journey "to the ends of the generous earth on a visit to Oceanus, whence the gods have risen, and Tethys our mother who brought me up kindly in their own house."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus

Whence the Gods have risen.

The whole original titans idea really twists my melon. Cronos was the youngest so how old must Oceanus have been?  :wacko:

http://en.wikipedia....itan_(mythology)

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Titanomachy

I don't know about the India connection either but Indonesia is a more likely possibility. Why do titans have weak legs or serpent legs?

Interestingly enough, the Hindus associate this sort of stuff ó this vitreous "seafroth" ó with Krishna and Balarama, the archetypes of Hercules and Atlas. Balarama is the alias of the Serpent Shesha, whose name means (in Sanskrit) "residue" and, more exactly, the kind of foam such as ambergris or pumice stone thrown over the beaches by the seas. The whole story is a clever allegory of the explosion of Mt. Atlas, the Worldís Pillar, ejecting the huge amounts of pumice stone and fly ash that covered the soil and the seas of Atlantis, and choking out all its paradisial forms of life.

The Titans ó and Atlas in particular ó were likened to Serpents (or Dragons), and to "weak-legged", anguipedal, Civilizing Heroes such as Erychthonios, Cadmus, Hercules, Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan, etc..

All such indeed derive from the Nagas ("Serpent-people", "Dragons") of India and Indonesia, as we argue elsewhere.


http://www.bibliotec...tlantida_2b.htm

From the same link it talks about the Vijra as being the flail of the Gods that drives evolution. Interesting!  :geek:

As we just said, myths work at several levels, and a parallel such as the Atlantean one is just a facet of Godís myriad aspects. In other words, volcanoes are manifestations of Godís power, the weapon he often chooses to castigate the nations and to force Evolution to follow its course. The Hindus call this force by the name of vajra, a Sanskrit word meaning both "hard as diamond", as well as "thunderbolt". The vajra is the thunderbolt weapon used by almighty gods such as Baal (Herculesís archetype), Zeus, Indra, Haddad, and a myriad others. In fact, God is neither the vajra nor the volcano, but the force behind it, its impeller and wielder.

For the vajra is indeed the flail of the gods, the Celestial weapon He uses in order to quicken Evolution and to stir Nature into action, in the endless parade of life forms that characterizes Life. Perhaps all this has a purpose in the divine conscience, though I donít really know for sure. But there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Catastrophism is Godís way, if He indeed has any. Moreover, it is also Natureís way, let no one doubt it. The ancients well knew that, and so do I, having learnt from them. For instance, they often portrayed the vajra as a flail or a lash, or even a hammer or a mace wielded by the god in order to stir Nature into action.

Gods like Christ are not the only ones to die and to rise again from the dead. By the way, Christ too is the wielder of the "iron rod", the hardest of metals being a metaphor for "diamond" and, hence, for the vajra. Christ was preceded by many aliases, and the conception of "dying-resurrecting" gods akin to the Sun of Justice dates from oldest antiquity.

Among the many archetypes of Christ we can mention, offhand, Osiris, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Shiva, Kronos, Saturn, Dionysos, Serapis, Mithra and, of course, Krishna, in his infinite series of avatars, and Hercules, the great hero, in his fiery apotheosis that figured the Atlantean Conflagration.

Here is an extensive look at Zeus. You may have reat it but I didn't realize what a massive presence he really was.

http://phoenixandtur...tmill/Cook2.htm

Where was he born again? Zagreus wasn't it or was that Dionysus, maybe Zeus was Crete. I do see Zeus as being a relatively new cult coming in from the north round about uh.. between 4,000-3,000bce orignally as a tribal god that was developed more by the Minoans. If it was Zagreus you could say that would put him in Sumer but I'd personally lean more towards Zeus Ammon and Amon Ra as having a connection. Crete and Egypt were likely in contact from an early time though I have no source to support that right now.

There are the tridents carved into the labrys at Knossos so if Zeus was the dominant cult who were these Poseidon led groups attacking them at Thera. I suspect they were a combination of north africans and cannanites who also had a foothold in Egypt but they were increasingly defeated by the cult of Zeus as it regrouped under the Myceneans with reenforcements coming from the north. Make any sense?

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#552    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 30 September 2010 - 01:12 PM, said:

What tradition? There is absolutely no evidence of the story existing prior to Plato's telling nor, again, that Solon even knew anything about it.



Except that there isn't any evidence that the Egyptians knew it, by any name. Not in the Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom nor the New Kingdom.

The only reason to take the story as fact is because you want it to be.

cormac
and he told us an ancient tradition

Whatever then.

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#553    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 02:46 PM

Maybe the names of individuals often shed light on the meaning behind the story.

For example Atlas comes from the root of 'to endure'.
Lapetus the father of Atlas has the meaning 'piercer'.
Noah means 'rest' or 'comfy'.

http://www.riaanbooy...3-plato?start=2

http://www.world-mys...500yearsago.pdf

http://jsp.sagepub.c.../4/277.abstract

http://www.michaelsh...fense chart.pdf

Basically the tale of Atlantis could in one way correspond with the sea peoples. Therefore I don't think greekk myth should be read in isolation. If for convenience sake we break it down into the two main cults, them being Zeus and Poseidon then we may find parallels elsehwere. They will not fit perfectly but they could help.

I think that the cult of Zeus albeit in a different form was the mainsay of egyptian religion. Therefore we would be unsurprised to find any direct mention of an Atlantis like place. However, if we look at the enemies of Egypt we may start to find things in common with the cult of Poseidon.

Chariots of the Hyksos, possibly the Hittites and hebrews. Ok I better justify that. How's about titan as it may derive from Al Shaitan or Leviathan. Metaphorically it seems like the titans became the figures of chaos, Poseidon being included with them though he was actually an Olympian. The cult of Zeus on the other hand represented order. Thus we find a common parallel eith Set as chaos and Osiris as order. It could also have a close connecion to the tower of Babel. If these are all seen as metaphors for the collapse of one way of life to be replaced by the new and different the Atlantis fits very well. The archetypal tale of destruction but importantly rebirth because though the titans are defeated they are not destroyed and continue to tutor and watch over mankind even though hey have lost control of civilization.

Good link on titans. My head is mangled from trying to see from these different angles and I expect a hefty amount of criticism for this.  :alien:

http://members.tripo...azade/gods.html

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sea_Peoples

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#554    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 02:48 PM

Amenti to me seems like Amen, then I saw it mentioned that it is like Amen, the hidden God.

Amun/Amen seemed to sound like God to me here:

As the Egyptians considered themselves oppressed during the period of the Hyksos rule, the victory accomplished by pharaohs worshiping Amun was seen as a champion of the less fortunate. Consequently, Amun was viewed as upholding the rights of justice for the poor.[1] By aiding those who traveled in his name, he became the Protector of the road. Since he upheld Ma'at (truth, justice, and goodness) ,[1] those who prayed to Amun were required, first, to demonstrate that they were worthy by confessing their sins. Votive stela from the artisans village at Deir el-Medina record:

[Amun] who comes at the voice of the poor in distress, who gives breath to him who is wretched..You are Amun, the Lord of the silent, who comes at the voice of the poor; when I call to you in my distress You come and rescue me...Though the servant was disposed to do evil, the Lord is disposed to forgive. The Lord of Thebes spends not a whole day in anger; His wrath passes in a moment; none remains. His breath comes back to us in mercy..May your ka be kind; may you forgive; It shall not happen again.


Maybe he really is God and that's why we say Amen at the end of The Lord's Prayer.

I don't think Amun is Zeus, no matter what the Greeks thought and many of them didn't think he was Zeus, they say he was Pan, which I agree with.

How about that, here you can see that the title Amun can mean Lord.
http://books.google....n&f=false††Page 105
The few notes on that page are interesting. Plutarch says Pan, the All is Amun.
Aristotle explains the absence of the Moon in Arcadia.

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#555    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:07 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 02:48 PM, said:

Amenti to me seems like Amen, then I saw it mentioned that it is like Amen, the hidden God.

Amun/Amen seemed to sound like God to me here:

As the Egyptians considered themselves oppressed during the period of the Hyksos rule, the victory accomplished by pharaohs worshiping Amun was seen as a champion of the less fortunate. Consequently, Amun was viewed as upholding the rights of justice for the poor.[1] By aiding those who traveled in his name, he became the Protector of the road. Since he upheld Ma'at (truth, justice, and goodness) ,[1] those who prayed to Amun were required, first, to demonstrate that they were worthy by confessing their sins. Votive stela from the artisans village at Deir el-Medina record:

[Amun] who comes at the voice of the poor in distress, who gives breath to him who is wretched..You are Amun, the Lord of the silent, who comes at the voice of the poor; when I call to you in my distress You come and rescue me...Though the servant was disposed to do evil, the Lord is disposed to forgive. The Lord of Thebes spends not a whole day in anger; His wrath passes in a moment; none remains. His breath comes back to us in mercy..May your ka be kind; may you forgive; It shall not happen again.


Maybe he really is God and that's why we say Amen at the end of The Lord's Prayer.

I don't think Amun is Zeus, no matter what the Greeks thought and many of them didn't think he was Zeus, they say he was Pan, which I agree with.

How about that, here you can see that the title Amun can mean Lord.
http://books.google....n&f=false††Page 105
The few notes on that page are interesting. Plutarch says Pan, the All is Amun.
Aristotle explains the absence of the Moon in Arcadia.

Nice thought Puzz. I often hit a dead end when researching Pan and it had my non-senses twitching like mad. Apparently there were many Pans, they were called panes and may have become synonymous with satyrs. There is the saltman of Iran but I had taken it to be about the wild and lustful cults of Arcadia that were at heart similar to wicca or something. Altough I think you could be on to something I can't believe that Pan had any connection to Amon Ra of Egypt. 'All is hidden' yes because it is quite shavistic or monistic at least and it fits with my view. Who knows, could be.

http://www.whitedrag...rticles/pan.htm

You do have amon sort of in pandamonium but I prefer to think that Amon is a prefix or suffix that means hidden. Saying it after prayer still invokes what is to sacred to speak perhaps. I have also considered before the connection to the vedic AUM

Isn't there a myth with Ra that Isis found his secret name? Maybe that has some explanation for why he became Amon Ra.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."




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