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Questioning christianity's originality

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#46    ZaraKitty

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:20 AM

I'll just leave this here.

"Arguing with a religious person is like playing chess with a pigeon, you can be the greatest player in the world but he'll still knock over all the pieces, **** on the board and strut around triumphantly."

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#47    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:46 AM

View Postcsspwns, on 30 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

got owned Knight of Shadows. no offense :P
owned on what ?
i have only expressed that atheists done the linking between those gods and jesus
which in some if not most cases is true

in my opinion just as religious people desperate to prove their faith
also atheists are desperate to prove people's faith is based on fiction
it's normal it's healthy :P

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 30 June 2012 - 05:47 AM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#48    AzTide

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:29 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

To raise the bar on humanity sometimes you need something better than humanity to do it with.  And that's a good enough reason to me to use allegory, metaphor, and original/unoriginal storytelling in order to get that clue.

Do religions borrow from one another?  Of course!  Does originality actually matter to you?  Then believe in what's original, whatever that is.

Jesus is the most historically documented person who ever lived 2000+ years ago.   If someone feels comfortable denying the existence of Jesus they might as well deny all other history that came before it.  And what does such a person call a Christian who does that?   There's a mirror moment.


Being documented and being accurate are two totally different things,,

History from 100 years ago even as short as 20 or 30 years ago get's misreported and printed as fact. We are seeing it in American politics with President Obama's books and how he reported his family history and how the media just said what he'd wrote. Now we discover that Obama may have used some creative writting..

So if recent history can be spun then what about these story's of Jesus that were already a couple hundred years old by the time they were compiled and printed for the first Christian New Testament. And then lets fast forward to 1611 and the KJV of the Bible and how it was interpreted based on what Sir Frances Bacon thought and believed..

Heck I won't even bring up the fact of 3 sets of 10 Commandments most commonly used in Churches, And really how no Christians can tell you which version their church uses and why their church does use that set that their taught.

As long as a man is going to report it, it will have that mans opinion and spin on it. And the longer the story goes, the longer it evolves and gets further from the truth..

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#49    AzTide

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:33 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 June 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Does the originality of Horus enhance the believability of Horus?


The same could be said about Jesus..

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#50    AzTide

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:44 AM

View PostMajenta71, on 30 June 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

It's true that ancient religions have similar points of truth that relate to Jesus' life, but the knowledge of what Jesus would be connected to and do was not born with Him.  It was known by He and God before He ever left Heaven to be born on this earth.  Isaiah prophesied that one of the signs that would accompany the Savior that God was going to send into the world, was that he would be born of a virgin, and he prophesied it hundreds of years before Jesus was ever born.  God has not kept the knowledge of what He was going to do, under 'lock and key'; to the contrary, He's made it available to anyone who seeks Him and desires to know Him.  Therefore, knowledge of what way-marks would accompany Jesus when He came to be born here, was revealed to many of the ancients, before some of them wandered away from God and perverted what they knew.  For instance, if you look into the religion of Nimrod, builder of Babel, there are direct similarities between some of his 'gods' and 'goddesses', and the principles of Christianity.  What many do not realize is that before Nimrod became the rebel he eventually was, he was close to God and had learned the principles that were going to accompany God's plan for salvation.  After he rebelled against God, he perverted some of those principles by incorporating them into the 'lives' of his gods and goddesses, and his perversion permeated the entire world.  This is the very topic of a book I've written, so I've done some research on it and found this to be very true.  The same is true of the ancient Egyptians and what historians believe was their 'religion'.  

The point many don't seem to get about real, genuine Christianity however, is that it's not a 'belief', it's a living relationship with a living God.  It wasn't 'born' 2,000 years ago, it's been around since God has been around, with many of the ancients learning bits and pieces of its truth, and either incorporating them into beliefs they formed, or trying to walk in the entirety of it.  Unfortunately, you know how it is, things get written and rewritten, and the longer the years they get passed down to us, the more chance there is of them getting perverted by others who came after.  That's why Christianity isn't just about what's written in the Bible, it's about who Jesus is.  He's not dead, He is alive, and He's talking to those any who seek Him.  God, as the Creator and Father of all, would be a lousy God and Father if He didn't communicate with His people during their lives on this earth, but it's their choice to seek Him if they want that relationship.  The point about these other beliefs that have similarities to real Christianity, isn't 'who is right and who is wrong', it's do they have that living relationship with God that enables their followers to walk and talk with Him today, or are they beliefs written on paper?  :yes:


God never comes out and speaks to people in words. Never holds a conversation and listens to your problems and gives advice.. Everyone admits you talk he listens and then something happens and God gets the credit..

Athletes and others love praising God and Jesus when they win or make the big catch. But why is it's just the humans fault and not God getting the blame when they miss the catch and that causes their team to lose the big game?

And if Christianity took these beliefs from the written papers of the other religions does that mean that these other religions spoke to God first and that Christianity isn't the only true religion? Or that Christianity cherry picked what seemed right?

And i'm pretty sure the Dark Ages proved how Christianity can be Twisted and Vile..

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#51    eight bits

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:14 AM

Tiggs

Quote

Perhaps it's as simple as that if his bones had been broken, then the Passover sacrifice would have been invalid.

But he's not literally a Passover sacrifice in the first place. The allusion is entirely literary. Jesus is a human being, and so ineligible for that role. He's thoroughly "blemished," too, for that matter.

An elite author is calling attention to a detail of ritual compliance, in a scene which otherwise shouts how loose the allusion is. It's like talking about Kosher salt being used at a clambake.

We know that John plays mythological motifs off each other. For example, his unique water-to-wine incident takes on Dionysus directly, while altogether avoiding the signature wine ritual which furnished a basis for Dionysus parallels. John's telling of the miracle also does an elegant job of demolishing Mother-Mary-is-really-Isis imagery, which can be read into two of the other Gospels. I'll bet critics did use that, even as early as the late First Century.

So, I suspect he's doing myth-busting here, too. I could be wrong, but that's what I think is going on.

We know from the earlier Matthew that body-snatching stories existed from the outset.  Body snatching stories often include body disposal elements, sometimes colorful ones. Osiris was pretty well disposed of. Isis had to work her butt off to get close to reconstructing him. Mary Magdalene, in John and only in John, asks Isis' question, Where is the body of my beloved?, and a complete restoration walks right up to her. Hmm.


Quote

Which is why I don't associate the two

No, I don't think you're the one who proposes this kind of argument. You tend to look for the sources in the Hebrew Bible, and I agree that that's where the mother lode is. However, at a certain point in church history, those dependencies would more readily be seen as marks of legitimacy, not cause for suspicion.

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#52    Yamato

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:33 AM

View PostAzTide, on 30 June 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Being documented and being accurate are two totally different things,,

History from 100 years ago even as short as 20 or 30 years ago get's misreported and printed as fact. We are seeing it in American politics with President Obama's books and how he reported his family history and how the media just said what he'd wrote. Now we discover that Obama may have used some creative writting..

So if recent history can be spun then what about these story's of Jesus that were already a couple hundred years old by the time they were compiled and printed for the first Christian New Testament. And then lets fast forward to 1611 and the KJV of the Bible and how it was interpreted based on what Sir Frances Bacon thought and believed..

Heck I won't even bring up the fact of 3 sets of 10 Commandments most commonly used in Churches, And really how no Christians can tell you which version their church uses and why their church does use that set that their taught.

As long as a man is going to report it, it will have that mans opinion and spin on it. And the longer the story goes, the longer it evolves and gets further from the truth..
Because it doesn't matter to Christians what version of the Commandments their church uses.   People really ought to go to church so they can figure out what matters from what doesn't.   The sheer volume of nonsense that continuously gets assigned to Christians on this board is remarkable.

If information is 50 or 100 years after Christ, it's inaccurate because of the time that passed.  If it's information during the time of Christ, it's inaccurate because the Bible is JK Rowling.  If it's information from before the time of Christ, well that's just plain silly.   I don't know what the question is anymore when every question devolves into the same atheist BS that Christ either didn't exist or who cares if he did?   If that's going to be what every discussion about Christianity devolves to, this is obviously just another long winded atheist game of begging the question.

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#53    Yamato

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostAzTide, on 30 June 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

The same could be said about Jesus..
I didn't say anything.  I asked a question.  The same could be asked of Jesus you mean?   Okay, what originality is that?  Let's throw you into the den of dogs and see how you do.

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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#54    BorisIWantToKnow

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 June 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Does the originality of Horus provide you with belief in Horus?   :whistle:

Of course it doesn't provide me belief in him :)

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#55    Yamato

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostBorisIWantToKnow, on 30 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Of course it doesn't provide me belief in him :)
Thank you for being the first and only person to answer the question.  Though the chirping crickets I got from everyone else already agreed with you.  

And so it begs my question:   Originality.  What is it good for?

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#56    karmakazi

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostYamato, on 30 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

And so it begs my question:   Originality.  What is it good for?

My question is, has originality even existed in most of recorded history?  Stories always seemed to be based on something else, art always seems to be based on something else, music.... well you get the idea.  Even my most creative and original drawings were still inspired by something.

Take my avatar... inspired by Shakespeare.

Edited by karmakazi, 30 June 2012 - 11:52 AM.

If I had something witty to say, my signature would be a lot funnier.

#57    ZaraKitty

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostYamato, on 30 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I didn't say anything.  I asked a question.  The same could be asked of Jesus you mean?   Okay, what originality is that?  Let's throw you into the den of dogs and see how you do.

Did that little horus-jesus comparison offend you? Overreaction much.

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#58    ranrod

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:59 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if those early people borrowed the stories they liked the best from other religions and added it to theirs.  There are flood stories in other religions, resurrection, son of god stories, apostles, devil counterparts, etc.  Bits and pieces from a variety of other religions.  Then spent a few centuries refining it.  How original was the monotheistic nature of the religion?  IMHO it ended up being more polytheistic than most of those ancient religions, but monotheism was a big marketing point in the early days, wasn't it?


#59    7STAR

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:22 PM

a rage comic is hardly a credible source of information. i would like to see the ancient texts that specifically mention these attributes in reference to the gods that were mentioned. and besides. as my uncle made clear to me. even if everything in the comic is factually accurate—a true believer will simply discern that Satan merely put these myths into the historic script as a way to preemptively discredit the story of Jesus. a rationalization suspiciously similar to the notion that God put dinosaur fossils in the earth to 'test our faith' of a young earth creation. something, ironically enough, my uncle thinks is absurd.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.

#60    ranrod

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:51 PM

View Post7STAR, on 30 June 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

a rage comic is hardly a credible source of information. i would like to see the ancient texts that specifically mention these attributes in reference to the gods that were mentioned. and besides. as my uncle made clear to me. even if everything in the comic is factually accurate—a true believer will simply discern that Satan merely put these myths into the historic script as a way to preemptively discredit the story of Jesus. a rationalization suspiciously similar to the notion that God put dinosaur fossils in the earth to 'test our faith' of a young earth creation. something, ironically enough, my uncle thinks is absurd.
hmm...so when things seem shaky, blame Satan, huh?  How convenient...  What if when Satan turned on God, Satan actually won, but Satan's greatest trick was to convince humans that he lost?  The original god was imprisoned in hell, and Satan runs free.  That would explain why the followers so often end up enacting the opposite of what the teaching say, why the standard bearers for hate and discrimination have been religious, and why there was so much torture, slaughter and deception in the name of religion. It all makes sense now!  Wait...what if that's what Satan wants us to believe?  ...Wait, what if Satan lost to god, but Jesus in his trip were he resisted the three temptations of Satan, he actually gave in?  Satan said that if Jesus kneeled to him that all the kingdoms in his sight would be his.  Well they eventually did, so does that mean Jesus actually gave in and he serves Satan now?  ...But wait, Jesus is supposed to be god too, so why would Satan tempt the almighty with some cities on earth?...hmm...Doesn't make sense....Maybe it doesn't make sense because Satan is interfering with my thought process!  It never ends!!! <_<






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