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Our Ancestors, the Acoustical Engineers


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#16    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostHarte, on 12 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Probably.  There's no reason they couldn't have, that is.

Copper absolutely can be used to carve granite. Hardness is no issue in carving a grainy stone like granite.

Harte

You do realize that all historians on the world agrees that copper tools like axes for examples are used for show? Hiting tree with copper axe and axe is destroyed.
Not to mentioned granite.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#17    Harte

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

So, you think an axe is the only thing that can be made from copper?

The Egyptians used copper to saw right through granite.  Did it ruin their "axes?"

Harte

Edited by Harte, 12 November 2012 - 05:13 PM.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
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#18    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostHarte, on 12 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

So, you think an axe is the only thing that can be made from copper?

The Egyptians used copper to saw right through granite.  Did it ruin their "axes?"

Harte

Im not expert on Egypt. (And Maya)
But Chavin defentely didnt cut granite with copper.

Hey Harte, what do you think what is harder wood or granite? Just curious.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#19    Harte

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

View Postthe L, on 12 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Im not expert on Egypt. (And Maya)
But Chavin defentely didnt cut granite with copper.

Hey Harte, what do you think what is harder wood or granite? Just curious.
How does that matter?

I told you hardness is not a factor. Sandstone has a higher Moh's hardness scale number than granite.  Which would you think is easier to carve with copper?
Granite can be carved with copper. I didn't say it was easy to do so.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#20    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

View PostHarte, on 12 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Granite can be carved with copper. I didn't say it was easy to do so.

Hardness on Mohs scale doesnt matter true. Because all geologists agrees that Granites is even harder because of structure.
Please Harte I dont want that this become abother no diamond saw thread.Im sure that copper was made for show. All historians are. Its just for people who need explaination for all that used it as explantion for cutting granite.
Copper is 2,5 on Mohs scale. Granite (even is harder then that) mix of 7 and 6 and 2,5.
Can you cut steele with copper? :w00t:
Cmon. Its pointless discussion. Trust me Harte, ancient metallurgy is my field and I can asure you theres no chance to cut granite with copper.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#21    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:59 PM

And please, idea that ancient have a time is aburd and bizzare. They even have to work more then we are.

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#22    Harte

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:17 PM

View Postthe L, on 15 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Hardness on Mohs scale doesnt matter true. Because all geologists agrees that Granites is even harder because of structure.
Please Harte I dont want that this become abother no diamond saw thread.Im sure that copper was made for show. All historians are. Its just for people who need explaination for all that used it as explantion for cutting granite.
Copper is 2,5 on Mohs scale. Granite (even is harder then that) mix of 7 and 6 and 2,5.
Can you cut steele with copper? :w00t:
Cmon. Its pointless discussion. Trust me Harte, ancient metallurgy is my field and I can asure you theres no chance to cut granite with copper.
What does metallurgy have to do with it? Granite is grainy.  Anything that can remove these grains - even if it's one grain at a time, can be used to carve granite.

Copper was used.  Get over it.
Here's a diorite vase carved with copper in Egypt - 3200 years before there even was any Chavin culture in South America:

Posted Image

The various granite obelisks in Ancient Egypt were likely carved with bronze.  But the granite surface itself can be "softened" through the use of fire, and probably was, which accounts for the incredible precision of the hieroglyphs the Egyptians carved up and down the sides of the obelisks.

Perhaps a similar method was used by the Chavin to accomplish such fine work with only copper chiseling.

There are many ways to solve a problem.  You don't have to assume that some dude walked up to a chunk of granite and started whacking it with a chunk of copper.

Harte

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Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
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#23    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:15 PM

Hi Harte,
Metallurgy has all with it. Because metallurgy is linked with early use of metals.
Im not convienced in copper story. Or better I dont believe in that theory. If can it be done by copper ,which is funny to even wrote , lets see preformance.
Im aware of diorite vase and granite vases.
Existence of those vases doesnt proove per se that they were done with copper. Its your believe. Same as Budhists belive in previous lives.
If you said meteoric iron I would say okay but on copper we must disagree.

Edited by the L, 15 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#24    Harte

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

View Postthe L, on 15 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Hi Harte,
Metallurgy has all with it. Because metallurgy is linked with early use of metals.
Yes, metallurgy deals with metals.

But you yourself mentioned shaping granite using stone tools.  Where's the metallurgy in that?

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#25    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostHarte, on 15 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Yes, metallurgy deals with metals.

But you yourself mentioned shaping granite using stone tools.  Where's the metallurgy in that?

Harte

Because Im aware that stone tools were in use to time steel. Stone tools were in use a lot till iron appears.
Stone tools are cca 7 on Mohs scale so when Bronze and Iron fails ancient start use stone tools again. Bronze is  4 4,5 and Iron is 5. You there isnt  much difference between Iron and Bronze.
On other hand microlite is usually 7. Same as steel. What do you think that ancient didnt aware of that?

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#26    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

Copper was invented for show. Meaning it was social revolution. It caused hierarchy. Classes.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#27    Harte

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

View Postthe L, on 15 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Because Im aware that stone tools were in use to time steel. Stone tools were in use a lot till iron appears.
Stone tools are cca 7 on Mohs scale so when Bronze and Iron fails ancient start use stone tools again. Bronze is  4 4,5 and Iron is 5. You there isnt  much difference between Iron and Bronze.
On other hand microlite is usually 7. Same as steel. What do you think that ancient didnt aware of that?
Again, Mohs hardness is not a factor in carving stone.

Again, sandstone has the same Mohs hardness number as granite.  Are you also incredulous that sandstone can be carved with copper?

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

View PostHarte, on 15 November 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Again, Mohs hardness is not a factor in carving stone.

Again, sandstone has the same Mohs hardness number as granite.  Are you also incredulous that sandstone can be carved with copper?

Harte

It isnt. But indicates about hardness of metal itself.
Again Im aware of granite hardness.
Sandstone can be carved with bronze. Copper? Don know for sure.
Edit: I guess so.

Edited by the L, 15 November 2012 - 07:07 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#29    Parsec

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

The L,

just to get back on topic, here we can find another interesting trace of sound engineering: http://en.wikipedia....f_Ħal-Saflieni.
It is thought it has been carved bewteen 3.600 BC and 2.500 BC, so it's even older than those in South America.
The wiki page doesn't focus on acoustics very much, anyway It's an amazing place: there's a spot where, if you talk in it, your voice can be heard clearly in all the three levels of the Hypogeum. It's interesting to note that it works only with male voices.


#30    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

View PostParsec, on 18 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

The L,

just to get back on topic, here we can find another interesting trace of sound engineering: http://en.wikipedia....f_Ħal-Saflieni.
It is thought it has been carved bewteen 3.600 BC and 2.500 BC, so it's even older than those in South America.
The wiki page doesn't focus on acoustics very much, anyway It's an amazing place: there's a spot where, if you talk in it, your voice can be heard clearly in all the three levels of the Hypogeum. It's interesting to note that it works only with male voices.

Thanks Parsec on your contribution to UM in general. I like reading you.
I never heard about it before.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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