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EU considers sanctions on Russia


acidhead

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7585580.stm

EU leaders are considering sanctions "and many other means" against Russia over the Georgia crisis, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner has said.

But he said he hoped the matter would "be solved by negotiation".

Mr Kouchner said: "Sanctions are being considered, and many other means."

He added: "We are trying to elaborate a strong text that will show our determination not to accept [what is happening in Georgia]."

In a later statement, Mr Kouchner stressed France had made no proposals for sanctions itself but, as current president of the EU, would aim to get consensus among all 27 countries of the bloc if sanctions were envisaged.

Russia's foreign minister described talk of sanctions, which correspondents say Mr Kouchner ruled out earlier this week, as an emotional response that demonstrated Western confusion over the situation.

Sergei Lavrov said such talk was the working of "a sick imagination".

Mr Kouchner later responded by saying: "I'm not sick in the head. The Russians are a bit nervous, that's all."

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The main concern of the Europeans is if the gas pipeline that comes from Rusia began to "have malfunctions" again.

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The EU and US are hunting for another war it seems...

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The EU and US are hunting for another war it seems...

Both sides wanted this little game of who's got the biggest *****. It suited Russia as much as the West. Nothing will come of it, it's a load of hype over nothing. Russia have got a crap hand and the West won't want to use their hand. There will be a war of words and it will fizzle out into nothing, except for maybe Russia throwing a few more toys out the pram.

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i hope the Russkies tell the EU where to go, Russia just need to bide its time wait and hope for a harsh winter in Europe, and then strike, by turning the gas supplies off, that will put the EU in its place,

we need a strong Russia to create an equilibrium, has anyone been keeping their eye on the Russia military build up, its growing month by month, from Janes defence,

for last 6 months

47 T90 main battle tanks

22 launch vehicles

156 armoured personnel carriers

12 Mi-28N night-attack helicopters

3 Tu-160 strategic bomber

15 ICBMs

2 Su-34 interdiction aircraft

2006 12 months,

31 T90 main battle tanks

125 armoured personnel carriers

1 Tu-160 strategic bomber

7 Su-34 interdiction aircraft

6 ICBMs

12 launch vehiclesaft

7 Mi-28N night-attack helicopters

you can see difference from 06 they've picked the pace up and churning equipment out in 6 months were previously they where building less in a 12 month time span.

Edited by stevewinn
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How could the EU possibly enforce sanctions even if they managed to decide upon them?

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i hope the Russkies tell the EU where to go, Russia just need to bide its time wait and hope for a harsh winter in Europe, and then strike, by turning the gas supplies off, that will put the EU in its place,

It won't happen. They need to sell their gas as much as we need to buy it, crippling their economy is the last thing they want, also, as for putting the EU in it's place, Russia also needs a lot of foreign workers to keep their economy moving, isolating themselves and snubbing european nations would do more harm to them then us.

As for their military, they may well be building, but it's still out-dated and obsolete in comparison to Western miliatry toys. They couldn't maintain a serious campaign for any length of time with their ageing equipment. Even their 1.1 million strong personnal are in the the main part poorly trained and i'm willing to bet they lack the stomach for a prolonged and pointless campaign.

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It won't happen. They need to sell their gas as much as we need to buy it, crippling their economy is the last thing they want, also, as for putting the EU in it's place, Russia also needs a lot of foreign workers to keep their economy moving, isolating themselves and snubbing european nations would do more harm to them then us.

totally a agree, they need to sell their gas and we need it, but who needs what more, even if Russia cut the supply down to half, it would send shock waves through Europe, when it comes to supply and demand Russia is in the driving seat,

As for their military, they may well be building, but it's still out-dated and obsolete in comparison to Western miliatry toys. They couldn't maintain a serious campaign for any length of time with their ageing equipment. Even their 1.1 million strong personnal are in the the main part poorly trained and i'm willing to bet they lack the stomach for a prolonged and pointless campaign.

i thought that, i even said in a post recently the Russian military is in no fit state and are there for the taking, but i've changed my mind, already made one fatal mistake and underestimated them, a couple of rag heads in the stan are giving us the mighty west problems!

How could the EU possibly enforce sanctions even if they managed to decide upon them?

i dont think they can. Russia only needs to talk tough and a show of force and the EU's scramble around, how slow was the response from the EU the Russkies just laughed at the response,

Edited by stevewinn
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totally a agree, they need to sell their gas and we need it, but who needs what more, even if Russia cut the supply down to half, it would send shock waves through Europe, when it comes to supply and demand Russia is in the driving seat,

I don't believe anyone's in the driving seat, it's a stale-mate on that front for me. Russia is building, a cut in income would be a set back, to cut supplies to half for the winter season would cost them a fortune, a fortune they can ill afford to lose, unless they want to set themselves back again. They might well play hardball for short periods to see the reaction of the EU but I don't beleive this game will go beyond a verbal assault.

i thought that, i even said in a post recently the Russian military is in no fit state and are there for the taking, but i've changed my mind, already made one fatal mistake and underestimated them, a couple of rag heads in the stan are giving us the mighty west problems!

Causing us problems, but only in relation to our current effort. We could turn stan into the worlds biggest car park if we wished, a long term creep creep approach was decided from the off so the problems aren't insurmountable just expected under the current approach.

what's changed your mind in thinking that Russia could win in a full on all out war with the west?

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what's changed your mind in thinking that Russia could win in a full on all out war with the west?

never said i thought they could win, i said i thought the same has you, their in no fit state etc... me changing my mind is more along the lines of it wouldn't be as easy has people think. the recent crisis with Georgia we seen the use of mainly old russian equipment, but i guess they didn't need to use the 'new gear'.. no point in using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

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never said i thought they could win, i said i thought the same has you, their in no fit state etc... me changing my mind is more along the lines of it wouldn't be as easy has people think. the recent crisis with Georgia we seen the use of mainly old russian equipment, but i guess they didn't need to use the 'new gear'.. no point in using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

I see, my mistake. True with the sledge hammer analogy too. Their old stock out weighs their new stock at the moment, that's why I don't think anything will happen with all this, their not in a postion to see it through, playing their hand now would be akin running before the starting pistol fires, pointless and a waste of energy.

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I see, my mistake. True with the sledge hammer analogy too. Their old stock out weighs their new stock at the moment, that's why I don't think anything will happen with all this, their not in a postion to see it through, playing their hand now would be akin running before the starting pistol fires, pointless and a waste of energy.

I agree with ya, so what do you think Russias next move will be if the EU put sanctions on them, the Russians have already had the knock back from the G8, so i guess its the G7 now,

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All idle threats . Just like the english fool Miliband . When foreign diplomats meet him they must wonder why you send the work experience boy . Does that fool ever shut up ? Anyway , back to puny sanctions , lets see what they will do when Russia does this :

Russia may cut off oil flow to the West

Fears are mounting that Russia may restrict oil deliveries to Western Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

Any such move would be a dramatic escalation of the Georgia crisis and play havoc with the oil markets.

Reports have begun to circulate in Moscow that Russian oil companies are under orders from the Kremlin to prepare for a supply cut to Germany and Poland through the Druzhba (Friendship) pipeline. It is believed that executives from lead-producer LUKoil have been put on weekend alert.

"They have been told to be ready to cut off supplies as soon as Monday," claimed a high-level business source, speaking to The Daily Telegraph. Any move would be timed to coincide with an emergency EU summit in Brussels, where possible sanctions against Russia are on the agenda.

What was those EU sanctions again ?

You cannot blame the weasel Miliband too much , he is working hard for his Zionist masters and trying to look tough and resolute to get Brown's job , pity he looks a fool and makes everyone laugh at the English so much .

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And just to make sure US friends are not forgotten , a little alteration in denominated currency for Russian gas transactions to lower those foreign held dollar reserves :

Gas will be sold in roubles: Gazprom CEO

Gazprom aspires to sell gas for roubles outside of Russia after trade on the St. Petersburg bourse starts, the head of the oil, giant Alexey Miller, has said. Its launch is planned for 2009.

According to Miller, the company has started the creation of the bourse to trade gas futures.

Miller has said St. Petersburg will soon become a major gas trade centre.

bye bye dollar

bye bye lapdog

Edited by Borat
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never said i thought they could win, i said i thought the same has you, their in no fit state etc... me changing my mind is more along the lines of it wouldn't be as easy has people think. the recent crisis with Georgia we seen the use of mainly old russian equipment, but i guess they didn't need to use the 'new gear'.. no point in using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

Steve, I can not understand why you say "old equipment" when it comes to Georgian war. It is not "old", it is of design which you consider archaic basing on NATO standards - but it fully matches Russian military design style, established in late 1930s and tested during WW2. Russian tanks do not have flat surfaces, and would never have them in future as this is banned by the military standards, becase the rounded shape better deflects the projectile and allows to use thinner armour; thinner armour allows the tanks to be light enough for them to cross the rivers and swamps. Russian tanks were specially designed for usage in offroad areas with multiple forests, swamps, rivers, lakes etc. My guess is that those in Georgia were quite modern if not the latest, by their shape at least. Most of Russian tanks since 1960s can float like amphibia boat, jump and dig themselves in if necessary. In 1930s Russia had heavy tanks of Abrams type (KB) but later they refused from them as they were found impractical. Modern tanks are all based on T-34 design, which was considered the best tank of WW2. This one had only thick armour at the front of the tower and first in the world aluminium diesel, which made it much lighter than any German tank of the time.

Also, for Russia 40 tanks in 6 months is not a "military buildup", as it is capable to produce them in thousands per annum; what you see is just slow upgrading, not an accelerated re-arming. Russian army at the moment is only 620,000 combat personnel, and it is undergoing the reduction, as their current military doctrine is based on usage of tactical nuclear charges, not precise munitions or hand-to-hand combat. Basically, the smaller army Russia has, the more dangerous it becomes, as this lowers the threshold after which the nukes are allowed. It is not 17th century now, and Russia is not prepared to lose again as many people as it lost in WW2, therefore the lives of the adversary are priced at dime per dozen. Their model for having a modern war is Hiroshima, not Stalingrad battle.

LOL, there is an old joke there - a German tries to pick on his Russian mate by saying "Look at your cars, it is absolutely shamefull to drive something like that to Europe", and Russian responds "But we don't drive to Europe in our cars, we drive in our tanks".

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And just to make sure US friends are not forgotten , a little alteration in denominated currency for Russian gas transactions to lower those foreign held dollar reserves :

Gas will be sold in roubles: Gazprom CEO

Gazprom aspires to sell gas for roubles outside of Russia after trade on the St. Petersburg bourse starts, the head of the oil, giant Alexey Miller, has said. Its launch is planned for 2009.

According to Miller, the company has started the creation of the bourse to trade gas futures.

Miller has said St. Petersburg will soon become a major gas trade centre.

bye bye dollar

bye bye lapdog

Largest producer of oil, Russia. Largest producer of food, USA. Yep, that's right, we have each other by the short hairs.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7585580.stm

EU leaders are considering sanctions "and many other means" against Russia over the Georgia crisis, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner has said.

But he said he hoped the matter would "be solved by negotiation".

Mr Kouchner said: "Sanctions are being considered, and many other means."

He added: "We are trying to elaborate a strong text that will show our determination not to accept [what is happening in Georgia]."

In a later statement, Mr Kouchner stressed France had made no proposals for sanctions itself but, as current president of the EU, would aim to get consensus among all 27 countries of the bloc if sanctions were envisaged.

Russia's foreign minister described talk of sanctions, which correspondents say Mr Kouchner ruled out earlier this week, as an emotional response that demonstrated Western confusion over the situation.

Sergei Lavrov said such talk was the working of "a sick imagination".

Mr Kouchner later responded by saying: "I'm not sick in the head. The Russians are a bit nervous, that's all."

If the EU attempts to shrink Russia's cash flow Russia will make sure the EU has a cold winter this year since most of the EU's natural gas comes from Russia.

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Not all, AtheistGod, about a quarter only - but together with heating oil it makes about 40% of energy supplies. I do not think Russia would be able to stop supply to EU without major damage done to the oil and gas industry, because they do not have enough storages and would have then to seal the tapped resources, afterwards it would cost billions to activate them again. Unless of course they would start burning the gas right at the wells, they can do this - perhaps if this happens, bananas would ripen in Siberia. :)

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And as the relentless pursuit of punitive actions by the EU gathers pace :

EU Likely to Shy From Sanctions on Russia, Sarkozy Aide Says

Aug. 30 (Bloomberg) -- European Union leaders probably won't penalize Russia with sanctions for its invasion of Georgia when they gather Sept. 1 for summit on the crisis, a French official said, signaling the West's limited ability to back condemnations with substantive action.

France doesn't foresee imposing barriers or restrictions at the meeting being convened by French President Nicolas Sarkozy to discuss relations with Russia in light of the Georgian conflict, a presidential aide said. The aide briefed reporters at the Elysee Palace in Paris yesterday on condition he not be further identified. France holds the EU's rotating presidency.

``The Europeans are sort of trying to find a formula for their message which makes them look tough but without being too provocative,'' said Reginald Dale, a senior fellow in the Europe program at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. ``They're bound to do something pretty cautious and rather feeble.''

EU inaction would reflect a response from the U.S. and Europe built largely on public condemnations. Relations with Russia, the world's largest energy supplier, reached a post-Cold War low after the military conflict started in Georgia on Aug. 7. Russia four days ago recognized two breakaway Georgian regions as independent states, ignoring U.S. and European objections.

Bloomberg : French revisit napoleonic offensive against Russia.

linked-image

Napoleon's retreat from Moscow
Edited by Borat
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Borat is correct (well, if he posts enough, it was bound to happen sooner or later).

The EU is toothless. On what goods - precisely - can it place an embargo ? Do we think the Russians will crumble 'cos they can't get french wines or german sausages ?

There are only two things that you can use as effective short-term weapons when it comes to an embargo. Food, and Energy. Russia is a net EXPORTER of both.

So much for an embargo.

Now lets talk about exports; We all know about the gas and the oil. But anyone familiar with the dramatic rise in steel prices over the last 12 months ?

Guess what; Russia is a major Iron Ore exporter. If it decided to curtail sales to Europe (and perhaps transfer to China and India instead), it would hurt us in Europe, without hurting Russia.

Then there's the coal. And the Gold. And the diamonds.

Meow Purr :D

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There are only two things that you can use as effective short-term weapons when it comes to an embargo. Food, and Energy. Russia is a net EXPORTER of both.

So much for an embargo.

Meow Purr :D

Russia imports 40% of food it uses, as its agriculture is in ruins to date. Potentially it can feed itself, but not at the current moment. Of course it can always buy food as it exports other essential stuff - but this restricts its current ability to wage a war, as hardly anything can be exported or imported during the war. They won't die starving, but they would have to limit the diet with potatoes and bread for a long period of time. The problem for EU is that if they cut food supplies to Russia, then it would buy from Brazil and EU would simply punish itself instead.

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Russia imports 40% of food it uses, as its agriculture is in ruins to date. Potentially it can feed itself, but not at the current moment. Of course it can always buy food as it exports other essential stuff - but this restricts its current ability to wage a war, as hardly anything can be exported or imported during the war. They won't die starving, but they would have to limit the diet with potatoes and bread for a long period of time. The problem for EU is that if they cut food supplies to Russia, then it would buy from Brazil and EU would simply punish itself instead.

I don't believe that's the case Marabod. My understanding is that Russia DOES import a lot of foodstuffs: poultry is a good example. However, by adjusting diet somewhat, Russian agriculture is more than capable - in its current form - of feeding the population. It's not the 1980's anymore.

Meow Purr :)

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I don't believe that's the case Marabod. My understanding is that Russia DOES import a lot of foodstuffs: poultry is a good example. However, by adjusting diet somewhat, Russian agriculture is more than capable - in its current form - of feeding the population. It's not the 1980's anymore.

Meow Purr :)

Russian farmers, or whats left from them, can not operate, as they are routinely getting robbed by the local drunkards, their farms often attacked, burnt, their cattle stolen. Moreover, they experience pressure from the bureaucrats, whom they have to bribe to get access to fertilizers, building materials, machinery and fuel; the prices are kept low when their products are purchased and the local markets are closed for them as they are controlled by ethnic mafias from Caucasis republics (Azeri, Chechens etc). The same time production of the large agricultural companies is as inefficient as it was in USSR times. One can see some efforts of the current government to improve the situation, but Russia still remains a country without law, so the rural cops are among those who loot the farmers instead of protecting them. The food prices in Russia are the same as in the West, despite their wages being much lower, and even this can not stimulate local production due to the mentioned reasons.

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ships-cat, I found for you the story how Russian agriculture lives! If you take an effort to work with the translator, you may discover a lot of new and interesting for yourself. However before opening that site I suggest to disable the cookies, as otherwise you'll get a bunch of them. http://vlasti.net/news/21387

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How could the EU possibly enforce sanctions even if they managed to decide upon them?

I say let the EU handle the Georgia situation and the USA for a change just give moral support to EU and nothing more.

Let those loud mouth in Europe show us how to handle things since they keep bad mouthing the US foeign policies.

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