11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

I checked Vinci's book on Amazon.com ("Look inside") but the index and bibliography are not complete. I also checked the notes, but they were also incomplete.

However, I didn't see an Ottema or Sandbach.

That could mean he left out a much disputed manuscript, but could nevertheless have read it and have been inspired by it.

[Otharus]

Halbertsma, in De Vrije Fries (1868), p.182-183 quotes a fragment from Volaterra (1559) in Latin.

http://images.tresoa...178-1868-11.pdf

Quam (papa) Julius jamjam in catalogum referre una cum Francisca, Romana matrona, statuit, quae et ipsa sub Eugenio claruit, prodigiis ac sanctitate: voluptatem inviti coitus ardente supra vulvam lurida reprimebat.

Can anyone who's Latin is better than mine translate it?

Jongsma (1933) refers to it in chapter I, and it made me curious.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 March 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Halbertsma, in De Vrije Fries (1868), p.182-183 quotes a fragment from Volaterra (1559) in Latin.

http://images.tresoa...178-1868-11.pdf

Quam (papa) Julius jamjam in catalogum referre una cum Francisca, Romana matrona, statuit, quae et ipsa sub Eugenio claruit, prodigiis ac sanctitate: voluptatem inviti coitus ardente supra vulvam lurida reprimebat.

Can anyone who's Latin is better than mine translate it?

Jongsma (1933) refers to it in chapter I, and it made me curious.

You will be interested in the last part:

http://translate.goo...rida reprimebat

But the best thing to do it enter parts of the quote instead of the complete quote.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 March 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 29 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Now I see; every chapter is followed by its footnotes.

In the chapter-parts the pagenumbers should be added, otherwise the footnotes are worthless, because they refer to the pagenumbers.

Thanks Knul, for your efforts of adding several relevant sources to the web.

Just stop accusing me of lying when you don't agree or don't understand.

Page numbers have been added.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 29 March 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Page numbers have been added.

Great, it's on my reading list.

Your efforts are much appreciated.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 March 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Great, it's on my reading list.

Your efforts are much appreciated.

You already thanked him for that in a former posyt.

And I am very ****ed now. So why must it be ME to tell you you repeated yourself?)

But I want to have what you are having now.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 29 March 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

You already thanked him for that in a former posyt.

And I am very ****ed now. So why must it be ME to tell you you repeated yourself?)

But I want to have what you are having now.

Your efforts are much appreciated too, Abe.

(Repeating myself once more )

[Otharus]

FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA

~ another example of a discrepancy between 'official' etymology and that suggested by OLB ~

In the OLB, the following varieties of the word THJANJA (to serve) are found.
Dutch and English meaning as well as fragment numbers (see below) are added.

THJANJA - name (=> Diana?) [18]

THJANJA - dienen - to serve [1,2,8,10,11,15,19,22]
TO THJANJANDE - te dienende - serving, to serve [4]
THJANATH - (hij) dient - (he) serves [6,13]
THJANATH - gediend (wezen, hebben) - (to be, to have) served [12,14]
THJANJATH - gediend (worden) - (to be) served [21]
THJANADE - (hij) diende - (he) served [20]

THJANEST - dienst - service [7b]
THJANIST - dienst - service [7a]
THJANESTA - diensten - services [3,16]

THJANJAR - dienaars - servants [17]
THJANRA - dienaars - servants [5]
THJANSTERUM - diensters, dienaressen - female servants [9]

Oldfrisian dictionaries (pre-OLB)

Wiarda (1786)
tinia, tyena, thiania - to serve
thianst, thianest - service
thianster - witch (!)

Hettema (1832)
thiania, tjaenje - to serve
thiansta, tjaenst - service, servant
thianster, tjaonster - witch (!)

Richthofen (1840)
thiania, tienia - to serve
thianer, tiener - servant
thianost, thianest, thianst, tienst - service

(!) note that in OLB the spelling for witch is "THJONSTER", and no relation to "THJANJA" (to serve) is suggested.
[034/15]
AS THV THÀN NÉN THJONSTER NE BISTE

Varieties in modern languages

to serve (verb):
dienen - dutch, german
tsjinje - frisian
tjene - danish, norwegian
tjäna - swedish
þjóna, thjóna - icelandic

Old-English, -German, -Norse

The term thegn (or thane or thayn in Shakespearean English), from OE þegn, ðegn "servant, attendant, retainer", is commonly used to describe either an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England, or as a class term, the majority of the aristocracy below the ranks of ealdormen and high-reeves. It is also the term for an early medieval Scandinavian class of retainers.

Etymology: Old English þeg(e)n "servant, attendant, retainer" is cognate with Old High German degan and Old Norse þegn ("thane, franklin, freeman, man").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thegn

'Official' etymology of Diana

Diana is an adjectival form developed from an ancient *divios, corresponding to later 'divus', 'dius', as in Dius Fidius, Dea Dia and in the neuter form dium meaning the sky. It is rooted in Indoeuropean *d(e)y(e)w, meaning bright sky or daylight, from which also derived the name of Vedic god Dyaus and the Latin deus, (god) and dies (day, daylight).

On the Tablets of Pylos a theonym δι(digamma)ια is supposed as referring to a deity precursor of Artemis. Modern scholars mostly accept the identification.

The ancient Latin writers Varro and Cicero considered the etymology of Dīāna as allied to that of dies and connected to the shine of the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia....iana_(mythology)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

1. [008/20]
FON HJARA SUSTERUM LÉTON HJA.RA THJANJA

2. [015/19]
FÁMNA THÉR VPPA ORA BURGUM AS MODER THJANJA

3. [016/09]
FAR THISSA THJANESTA SKILUN HJA LÉRA FRYA.S TEX

4. [017/06]
IS THÉR ÀMMAN KÉREN VMBE VPPA BURGUM TO THJANJANDE

5. [034/05]
JVWAR HÉROGA THJANRA WISA HEL.LÉNJA

6. [034/24]
HWÉRTO THJANATH THENE HVND

7.a/b [034/28]
HWAT THENE HVND IS INNA THJANIST THES SKÉP.HÀRDER.
BIN IK IN FRYA.S THJANEST

8. [057/26]
VMBE THA KÀNINGAR FON FINDA.S. FOLK TO THJANJA

9. [061/24]
THISSA MANGHÉRTNE WÉRON HJARA THJANSTERUM

10. [093/15]
SA SKOLDE HJRA BODA SINA WICHAR TO WÉI.WÍSER THJANJA

11. [095/29]
HWÉRTO SKOLDE HJA THJANJA

12. [100/29]
GÍRIGA DROCHTNE [...] THAM ÉRATH ÀND THJANATH WILLATH WÉSA

13. [107/24]
THET FJELD THJANATH TO KÀMP ÀND TO WÉDE

14. [110/13]
MÀNNISKA THÉR THJANATH HÉDE TO ROJAR

15. [121/15]
IK WIL BLÁT THÀT STV MY THJANJA SKOLSTE VMB LÁN

16. [127/05]
TO LÁNJA HIM TOFÁRA SINA THJANESTA

17. [130/07]
THA JOHNJAR SEND AFGODA THJANJAR

18. [132/26]
FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA

19. [135/02]
ELLA MOSTE THJANJA VMBE THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA JETA RIKER ÀND WELDIGER TO MÁKJANE

20. [137/04]
ÀND FRYA.S.STJÛRAR THÉR AS SLÁV THJANADE

21. [204/29]
TO THA LESTA WÀRTH HJU THRVCH HJAM FOLGATH ÀND THJANJATH

22. [207/21]
THÀT STORA FOLK [...] MOS RA AS SLÁVONA THJANJA

Edited by Otharus, 30 March 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 30 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

THJANJA - name (=> Diana?)

To my own surprise, I am the first (as far as I know) who interprets Thjanja as Diana.

Checked: Ottema (1876), Sandbach (1876), Wirth (1933), Jensma (2006), de Heer (2008), Raubenheimer (2011), Knul (2012)
(can't find the link to Overwijn's version)

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 30 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

To my own surprise, I am the first (as far as I know) who interprets Thjanja as Diana.

Checked: Ottema (1876), Sandbach (1876), Wirth (1933), Jensma (2006), de Heer (2008), Raubenheimer (2011), Knul (2012)
(can't find the link to Overwijn's version)

No, I posted that list of gods as mentioned in the OLB, and then found a Diana here:

Abramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Long ago I posted abut the "Frisia seu De viris rebusque Frisiae" by Martinus Hamconius. I also posted screenshots frpm that book..

But here I found another real copy:

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

And another couple of screenshots (and look at the list of the Frisian 'pantheon') :

PHRESIA_INDICA-HAMCONIUS.jpg

FRISIAN_GODS-HAMCONIUS.jpg
Stauo/Stavo > Jupiter
Fosta > Mars
Snein > Sol
Harco > Hercules
Holler > Pluto
Freda > Venus
VValdach > Diana
Meda > Medea

.

Abramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Sorry, not done yet:

Commentatio de Druidis occidentalium populorum philosophis multo quam antea - Joannes Georgius Frickius filius,Albertus Frickius, 1744

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Anyway able to read Latin?

FRICKIUS.jpg

++++++++


EDIT:

You missed "Fosta" in the list?

And how about this "Occo"?? A druid? It gets weirder every second.

.

And if you read subsequent posts, then indeed an old source for Thiania/Diana shows up.

Maybe I will repost that post later.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 March 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[Abramelin]

ok, something went wrong

Edited by Abramelin, 30 March 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[Abramelin]

Well, Otharus, it must have been something I wanted to post but didn't get a chance to because one of my neighbours showed up again unexpectedly and I accidentily closed what I had saved on Notepad.

But I do remember it was an ages old Dutch source that equated Thiania with Diana.

All hope is not lost, lol: if I found it once, I can find it again.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 30 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA

~ another example of a discrepancy between 'official' etymology and that suggested by OLB ~

In the OLB, the following varieties of the word THJANJA (to serve) are found.
Dutch and English meaning as well as fragment numbers (see below) are added.

THJANJA - name (=> Diana?) [18]

You must be right. I changed my text.I have also changed Fasta into Vesta as here godesses are meant in stead of burch-famna.

Edited by Knul, 31 March 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Knul]

So far I located Kerenak in the Scottish Highlands in the area of the Caerenii or the Cornacii, but I did not locate the castle itself. Now I found the place on http://en.wikipedia....ames_in_Britain .

Attached Files

•  Kerenak Britain_roman in cirkel.jpg   164.61K   4 downloads

Edited by Knul, 01 April 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 30 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Wiarda (1786)
tinia, tyena, thiania - to serve
thianst, thianest - service
thianster - witch (!)

I love this picture of Diana.

It's interesting that Tinia is an Etruscan God - more like Jove/Zeus than Diana though.

tinia, tyena, thiania - to serve


Tinia (also Tin, Tinh, Tins or Tina) was the god of the sky and the highest god in Etruscan mythology, equivalent to the Roman Jupiter and the Greek Zeus.[1]
He was the husband of Thalna or Uni and the father of Heracle.

Tin means; the combination of power and wisdom, literally in the beginning.[2] The Etruscans believed in Nine Great Gods, who had the power of hurling thunderbolts; they were called Novensiles by the Romans.[3] Of thunderbolts there were eleven sorts, of which Tinia, as the supreme thunder-god, wielded three.[3] Tinia was also part of the powerful "trinity" that included Menrva and Uni and had temples in every city of Etruria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinia