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Troubling Doctrines For Christians


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#106    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

View PostIamsSon, on 22 March 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I sometimes think we make more of predestination than God intended.  I think it may, in part mean that given the way He chose to go about working His plan, which included giving man the ability to choose, He knew there would be a portion of people who would choose not to follow Him no matter what He did or didn't reveal of Himself.  So, in deciding to work His plan in this way He "predestined" some to be lost.  Not that He selected, "Well, John will not be saved, My Yoi Huang will also not make it, Marco will not be saved..."

That's a good explanation. You likely know more about scriptures and theology than I do. That said, "predestined" sounds quite a bit like "selected" to my fallible ears. It seems like a distinction with next to no difference. I admit that it's a tough nut to crack. Your explanation is one of the better ones that I've heard or read. It might not quite bring a solution to the Calvinist conundrum, but it's a step in the right direction. I accept the fact that I can't really answer the question.

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#107    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM

View Posteuroninja, on 22 March 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

I think the whole lost/saved thing is way out of proportion and was lost in translation. I think Jesus doesn't go out of his way damning people. He's the god of love. He doesn't create some kind of path to torture those who don't believe in him and keep them lost. Jesus knows the future but predestination sounds manmade. Predestination in religion is every single situation has been preplanned by god. Predestination sounds vicious coming from a loving god Jesus. It doesn't make sense. Knowing the future is something else. We have free choice. I don't think god manages our lifestyles unless we give up our free choice and follow Jesus. We are not puppets.

In a general direction, we make decisions left and right every day. Some of them are opportunities, some of which may be placed in our lives by God. We might accept them, or we might reject them. Some of them may change our destinies. We all have regrets and remorse over making wrong choices. On the other hand, we all feel relief over making right choices. It almost seems like a life-long journey of picking the right "door". We sometimes come to proverbial forks in the road, not sure of which path to take.

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#108    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

In a general direction
In a general direction???????????? According to whom?

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

some of which may be placed in our lives by God.
I would only agree to this if you gave yourself to Christ, meaning you're a real christian. What you're saying here is people who are not christian don't have a free choice.

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

some of which may be placed in our lives by God. We might accept them, or we might reject them.
I believe everything in my life is jesus' will because I gave myself to Christ. So I accept everything in my life. If god is the one running your life you won't have the time to reject. You'll feel embarrassed blaming god for the horrible things too. God is either almighty or he's not god at all. This rule doesn't apply to non christian. People outside the christian religion have their thing.

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

On the other hand, we all feel relief over making right choices.
If you're a real christian you would know there's only one choice. Jesus' way. His will. He's writing his will to christians' hearts. For a christian every road is a road to jesus christ. Are we real christian? That's really the question. I'm not here to judge other people's beliefs outside of christianity.

Edited by euroninja, 23 March 2013 - 02:53 AM.

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#109    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:04 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

On the other hand, we all feel relief over making right choices.
As a christian how would I know if I made the right choices? Only Jesus knows the right way but he also gave us the scriptures. Either jesus died for my sins or he didn't. That's the bottom line. I have no fear because jesus made that promise. All I can do is to follow the scriptures about jesus and be a sane loving human being.

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#110    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:29 AM

View Posteuroninja, on 23 March 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

As a christian how would I know if I made the right choices? Only Jesus knows the right way but he also gave us the scriptures. Either jesus died for my sins or he didn't. That's the bottom line. I have no fear because jesus made that promise. All I can do is to follow the scriptures about jesus and be a sane loving human being.

You missed my point. I was referring to life, in general. All human beings are faced with chances to accept or reject choices on a routine basis. "Should I date that woman?" "Should I take that job?" Some of those decisions can be life-changing in dramatic ways. They often make people wonder about the path not taken. I didn't limit this to Christians or theists of any kind, for that matter.

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#111    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:24 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 23 March 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

You missed my point. I was referring to life, in general. All human beings are faced with chances to accept or reject choices on a routine basis. "Should I date that woman?" "Should I take that job?" Some of those decisions can be life-changing in dramatic ways. They often make people wonder about the path not taken. I didn't limit this to Christians or theists of any kind, for that matter.
You're right I missed your point because I thought this thread is about Troubling Doctrines For Christians. I'm reading you through my christian faith, and it doesn't change how my life is turning out. Jesus runs my life and it doesn't mean I'm following it through blind faith. I don't see things as good or bad decisions. I see things as moving me closer to christ. Am I becoming a better deeper person in christ? That's the way I see things. Everything is a learning experience to let christ in deeper than before. Heartaches, sufferings, they all teach something about my connection with my god. Thy will be done. I either want that to happen or I'm not a christian.

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#112    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:28 AM

Jesus Christ is not here to make me suffer. He's here to love people and make me his vessel. The holy spirit is here to make real christians his vessels. That's in the Bible.

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#113    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:53 AM

View Posteuroninja, on 22 March 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

I think the whole lost/saved thing is way out of proportion and was lost in translation. I think Jesus doesn't go out of his way damning people. He's the god of love. He doesn't create some kind of path to torture those who don't believe in him and keep them lost. Jesus knows the future but predestination sounds manmade. Predestination in religion is every single situation has been preplanned by god. Predestination sounds vicious coming from a loving god Jesus. It doesn't make sense. Knowing the future is something else. We have free choice. I don't think god manages our lifestyles unless we give up our free choice and follow Jesus. We are not puppets.
yes, I think the problem with that notion is that it thinks of God in Human ways; that God thinks like Humans do, and "knows" what's going to happen, but at the same time intervenes in a hands-on way to direct the life of individuals? if he Knew everything that was going to happen, that wiould hardly be necessary, would it? it's like giving God human emotions (mostly anger); it's basically trying to think of God in ways that people can understand, which is perfectly understandable but limits Him, and so is arguably not necessarily the truth and the whole truth.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#114    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:10 AM

You have three "infinities" about God that people try to make fit together -- infinite love, infinite justice, infinite power.  Now the love part says that God wants everyone to be saved.

The infinite justice parts says that evil must be punished.  (I think this is the favorite part about all this to fundamentalists).

The infinite power part says God gets anything He wants, no exceptions.  How can God get the "save everyone" part of the first God and at the same time the "punish evil" part of the second God?  Well this third God gives the answer very simply -- God has arranged things so that everyone ultimately is saved, but must first be punished for the bad things they do.

The Roman Catholic purgatory solves this problem, if you take Hell as just a showplace not actually occupied, except by abstract ideas.

The Buddhist/Hindu concept of rebirth also solves it, as you work out your karma (the word for your accumulated sins and merits).


#115    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

if he Knew everything that was going to happen, that wiould hardly be necessary, would it?
Perfect I'm with you.

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

it's like giving God human emotions (mostly anger); it's basically trying to think of God in ways that people can understand, which is perfectly understandable but limits Him, and so is arguably not necessarily the truth and the whole truth.
I think when it comes to Jesus, love is not an emotion. It's presence. I've read that somewhere or one of the post even.

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#116    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

yes, I think the problem with that notion is that it thinks of God in Human ways; that God thinks like Humans do, and "knows" what's going to happen, but at the same time intervenes in a hands-on way to direct the life of individuals? if he Knew everything that was going to happen, that wiould hardly be necessary, would it? it's like giving God human emotions (mostly anger); it's basically trying to think of God in ways that people can understand, which is perfectly understandable but limits Him, and so is arguably not necessarily the truth and the whole truth.
I don't buy that God "knows" what we are going to do.  Omniscience to me implies knowing anything that can be known, but we have free will which I would think has to mean that what we will do when we exercise that free will is not knowable.  If it is knowable even in theory (say God hides this knowledge from Himself), it is still determined and not free.


#117    Gummug

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:11 AM

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, Frank, but how does God knowing something that will happen determine it? If God exists outside of time, or say God created time and can control it, I think He could see something in the future (if it even would be the future to Him) and yet not determine it. This is a hard concept to grasp, I admit. I heard it explained once. It's kinda like, we're limited to past, present, and future, but maybe God can exist in all three simultaneously. I wish I could explain it better but I really don't understand it myself. That used to bother me quite a bit, how does God know what happens before it happens, but somehow I believe He does, and yet does not determine it, even the choices we make.

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#118    euroninja

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

yes, I think the problem with that notion is that it thinks of God in Human ways; that God thinks like Humans do, and "knows" what's going to happen, but at the same time intervenes in a hands-on way to direct the life of individuals? if he Knew everything that was going to happen, that wiould hardly be necessary, would it?
Being human limits us from knowing god's mind. So there are those who believe in god's intervention. Examples are in the bible. Many people also don't believe in god's existence. They still believe in free will. I'm a christian. So I believe in Thy Will Be Done because it's the best conclusion for me. I also experience my life that way. I accept life. If god predestined my christian life I wouldn't know about it. So I accept the premise, "if he Knew everything that was going to happen, that wiould hardly be necessary, would it?"

Now that I'm older many of my early christian church beliefs have been reinterpreted by me through studies and life experiences. Invalid old church beliefs are hard to let go because they are part of the popular culture.

Edited by euroninja, 23 March 2013 - 11:10 AM.

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#119    danielost

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

You have three "infinities" about God that people try to make fit together -- infinite love, infinite justice, infinite power.  Now the love part says that God wants everyone to be saved.

The infinite justice parts says that evil must be punished.  (I think this is the favorite part about all this to fundamentalists).

The infinite power part says God gets anything He wants, no exceptions.  How can God get the "save everyone" part of the first God and at the same time the "punish evil" part of the second God?  Well this third God gives the answer very simply -- God has arranged things so that everyone ultimately is saved, but must first be punished for the bad things they do.

The Roman Catholic purgatory solves this problem, if you take Hell as just a showplace not actually occupied, except by abstract ideas.

The Buddhist/Hindu concept of rebirth also solves it, as you work out your karma (the word for your accumulated sins and merits).

You forgot one infinite mercy.  Which again is were christ comes into the picture.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#120    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:30 AM

If it is possible to know with certainty what someone will do, then whether God knows it or not becomes beside the point -- what that person will do is predestined.  It may be determined by their genes and life experiences and nature and even their mood at the moment, but if it can be known by anyone or any thing, or even if it can't be known but is theoretically knowable, then it is determined and there is no free will.

The only way we can have free will is if we are able to do things that there is no way to predict.

I think infinite love covers mercy and compassion, and Christ is not needed.





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