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Are we the earliest intelligent species ?


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#76    psyche101

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:22 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

The problem with this is, in 3rd world countries the money that can be made means there is a lot of corruption and they will risk cutting down forests regardless of the punishment. (I myself have witnessed an ISLAND of floating forest being transported over the sea). You mention what other species does this? Well none. Others neednt to because they don't consume anywhere near the amount of wood we do and depletion of forests would not be a problem at all as a result of them.

Like the Palm oil forests I take it.

Whilst we have a few that are willing to take advantage and rape an environment for profit, many more will fight these individuals. We used to use palm oil for cooking at home, until I found out about the Orangutan's plight. It is a banned commodity in our house now. I am only one, but I suspect I am one of thousands. I do not see the product on the local supermarket shelves these days and have not done so for about a year. And we know about things such as what you have mentioned above because someone has seen it, and takes offense to it. That offended quality of seeing a global environment raped for personal gain, and being outraged at it, is the human trait I am fighting to have heard, and to be fair I believe it outweighs the bad side. Money just offers advantages to a head start.


View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I will direct you to this site to answer that question: http://overfishing.o...g_a_problem.php

Pretty much what I had hoped for. This illustrates exactly what I am saying.

Who recognised the problem? Who has qualified the problem? Who has an answer to the problem? And who is doing something about the problem?

We are.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I am not implying we are evil and destructive. I have addressed some have recognised the fact that continuing our damage is unsustainable and in the long term will cost more. Elephants don't knock down trees on a scale in which it would be considered a threat to any forest and the biodiversity. As stated before the corruption is more rife than you think and it will continue as the profits rise.

Then I think you may have entered the wrong conversation. I got the impression from Ryegrog that humans are a pretty hopeless species that stumbles around destroying everything. And far too many angsty teens have that perception, and wield it around. I do not doubt corruption is rife, that is business, but I think that a great many of us are trying to make this a better place, even though some do not care what they leave behind for others to clean up.

This I have no doubt is as prevalent in the animal kingdom, if not more so than it is with people. That is where I was going. I think we agree that "we are not all bad".

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I am aware. I am also aware that during a period in the time of the dinosaurs the entire atmosphere was polluted and in fact poisonous to breathe. What I am arguing here is that it is not conducted by nature.

Who is to say that an industrial revolution is not a normal aspect of intelligent evolution? We are simply the first to make it this far.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I never stated elephants were at all benevolent. People forget they are wild animals. Depends on the situation, a T Rex if fed might ignore it or use it to lure other prey. Same situation with humans, of course if they were hungry they would just go to the nearest supermarket or fast food place for example and eat there, if it were a matter of survival then the dolphin would probably be on the menu. Other than that people would try help it back into the ocean. I have heard of animals helping other species of animals.

I think we are on the same page here.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Never said either species were better than us. Well, greed and failure to recognise long term affect is quite hard to determine with nature. Unfortunately the few undesirables are in charge of what happens on a grand scale. (sociopathic, greedy etc politicians, CEOs etc). Not all are bad but just saying.

I am quite sure we are on the same page here.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I thought it would be identified as such but for example destroy the soil around you and you won't have anywhere to grow the food. Same could be applied for everything. Which is why you have to consider it is still nature and you need to try and conserve this. Not necessarily hippy crap, just realist.

The soil is replenished with rotating crops, we now understand even the needs of plants, this is the sort of thing we assist the environment with. If we do not look after it, it does not look after us, and many of us rely on this balance. I think I misunderstood you to be perfectly honest.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

You put an elephant to solve oil leaks, you're going to get no where. We are the only species who can actually fix these problems. Of course we aren't going to stand idle and watch this happen.

But would it push a Dolphin back into the sea? I think this is where we have risen to the next level? We can seem heartless and cruel, but sometimes we just need to look a bit deeper.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I did not think I came across as one who hated humanity or such. Just factual evidence of what is actually happening in the world and the stark reality of what things really are at. As Ryegrog has also said, just telling it like it is.

This is perhaps where we got off on the wrong foot. Post I was replying to was this:


Quote

Yes I agree there are measures taken to right the wrong but we still keep destroying as we repair.
In my opinion, Species like the elephant, whale and dolphin are more intelligent because they live
in harmony with nature where we exploit it.

I find that an inaccurate statement, and not really fair on humanity.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I also recognise the amount of good people in this world who want to and do help in fixing things. What I detest in humanity is ignorance, which, quite frankly is the CORE problem.

Again, I think we are on the same page, my objection is to seeing humans as some lumbering stupid creature that crushes everything in their path. I think we have earned the right to be considered more than that.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#77    psyche101

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:41 AM

View PostNuke_em, on 12 October 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Based on how long we are here.... i think we are not one of first civilizations. I watched a documentary 2 days ago, that had a topic on how we came to be. Interesting fact was that a scientist said we were all made out of stardust, because it contained genetic materials for making life possible, human and animal... So that took place in half of our planets age, lets say 10 millions years ago when the ape was on the rise.

What i am trying to say is that stardust came from a supernova explosion, once it sucked everything in it exploded and shot all that material all over the space. So if this guy was half right, there are plenty more civilizations out there, but they are too far from us and our reach. Beliving we are the only one is very ignorant, because man cannot comprehend the vastness of space, i mean our brains can't..


Close Nuke, but no cigar

The stars underwent evolution as well. There have been three generations of them. The current generation is capable of producing the heavy metals you heard described as "Star Stuff". The first suns were just gas, far to low in metallically to produce these elements.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#78    psyche101

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Ok maybe I didn't stipulate everything in my post. Obviously these elephants have been taken from their homes. I'm not sure of the procedure of Indian trainers but most circus trainers undergo a "breaking" procedure. They "break" the elephant through beating and such until it gives in, so the elephant would then follow the trainers orders.

Like horses I take it. This practise is centuries old. Why is it a problem now? This is often mutually beneficial, the animal has a hard work life, but need not fear predators or hunger. Many of us take the same option with work.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

They are wild animals I believe you are forgetting that important fact. I also believe in that video you notice their legs are chained up. But it's all good because they get back rubs and baths... Right?

Ohh, no, that was the crux of my posts!

But with the back rubs..............   .. touche`! ;)

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Revenge? Oh no, I was saying invasion of their homes. I mean, how do humans usually react in that case? Oh yeah, war, that's it.

War is when we go against each other. This strikes me as something quite different. I would call two grown Elephants in a fight "Warring".

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I believe that is because we recognise in the wild that is how they are and that is what you can expect.

I do not think we can expect that. I expect you will find that many of the killers are young bull elephants, still in their "teens" When older more stable male Elephants were introduced to these herds, the younger wilder elephants started to settle down. But I would call that instinct as opposed to intelligence.

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I left dolphins alone since I don't know enough about them to make a comment. I only recently watched a couple of videos on the elephants and the training procedures they go through. From what I've seen they've just had enough and snap.


:tu Fair enough, I think our tangents were not what we thought they were anyway. I think essentially, we are pretty much in agreement. People are not all bad, and animals do not have more respect or insight to the planet than we do. They do what comes naturally. We think ahead.

Edited by psyche101, 15 October 2012 - 06:53 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#79    SurgeTechnologies

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:12 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 October 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Close Nuke, but no cigar

The stars underwent evolution as well. There have been three generations of them. The current generation is capable of producing the heavy metals you heard described as "Star Stuff". The first suns were just gas, far to low in metallically to produce these elements.

Hmmm true, yet universe exists very long. One could say that we came in the picture in early part of its age, so if there are planets like ours (more earth-like ) i would bet a round of beer that there is animal life there, or at least primitive form of life. Hell maybe there is a evolved civilization somewhere but we simply can't know...
Our technology is evolving rapidly and i bet that they will soon find something interesting.. if they haven't already who knows? :huh:

" Technology has exceeded our humanity. "

#80    Hawkin

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 October 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

I believe we are already addressing these issues. Australia's policy was always to grow large but in the last couple of years fears have arisen that such is likely to affect our current way of life. I expect this to follow suit. Although there is still much land, resources are harder to come by. Alternate fuels, foods and living conditions are all under scrutiny now, and we are looking for smarter cleaner ways to do things.



I do not reject your link, as I explained I simply cannot see it. It just looks like a white rectangle to me. I would appreciate if you could stick to text or the like for my own sake and to better further any conversation.
I guess there is a measure of pride involved, I think our ancestors have accomplished a great deal and I feel a sense of pride about that.



LOL :tu:

It is not just you at all, most people have an ingrained love for these animals, and we find it hard to imagine them doing these things, but at the end of the day, they are wild animals, just like a Lion or Tiger. It's a very typical mindset and most people are shocked when they recognise it. I admit I was surprised to find the lovable Dolphin will rape a human given the chance! And after that doco on Elephants, crikey, I think they are pretty darn scary, heck a Giraffe can crack a Lions skull with one kick! And they have killed quite a few people as well.

Just because I agreed that elephants and dolphins are capable of violence like us doesn't t change the fact
that we destroy our own planet and they don't. Yes we have the intelligence to repair what we fixed but to accomplish that
we have to quite damaging. BTW...Why don't you have access to Youtube Vids? Does your employer have a block on his
Computers. Same on you for wasting  company time.

http://en.wikipedia....c_Garbage_Patch

Edited by Ryegrog, 15 October 2012 - 09:17 PM.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much of it can make you arrogant & egotistical.

#81    MonkeysWorth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:18 PM

"IF there is a galactic neighbourhood we are no doubt classed as an endangered species to them, the reason being our species is intelligent enough to manipulate and create all manner of things but not yet smart enough to leave our world and colonise others (apart from a hop to the moon we've done nothing)."

it is not our lack of intelligence, it is our lack of ability to get beyond our need for material gain, currency is holding our species back, it is a sore invention, "money"........... Just think how much more advanced we would be if we did not have that obstacle......


#82    DONTEATUS

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:20 PM

This is as good an answer as any so dont Get bent If were it ! :blush:

This is a Work in Progress!

#83    Orcseeker

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 October 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:



Like the Palm oil forests I take it.

Whilst we have a few that are willing to take advantage and rape an environment for profit, many more will fight these individuals. We used to use palm oil for cooking at home, until I found out about the Orangutan's plight. It is a banned commodity in our house now. I am only one, but I suspect I am one of thousands. I do not see the product on the local supermarket shelves these days and have not done so for about a year. And we know about things such as what you have mentioned above because someone has seen it, and takes offense to it. That offended quality of seeing a global environment raped for personal gain, and being outraged at it, is the human trait I am fighting to have heard, and to be fair I believe it outweighs the bad side. Money just offers advantages to a head start.

As we are capable of tightening our logging processes in our own countries, there are others who do not police this or are corrupt where it then picks up tenfold due to demand. This short term profit gain which clouds the minds of many who can exploit this situation is the problem.

I also go agree with you on avoiding these products and spend a little bit more if need be. For example, I try to go for the tuna which has been caught with hook and line other than those huge nets that take in way too many fish and others not intended to be caught from dolphins to stingray.

I believe you are also aware of the problem here in Australia primarily with the sale of our own agricultural goods. The supermarkets extremely competitive prices means that farmers can't make a good profit at all. Importing from overseas brings in cheaper goods that makes it hard to compete with prices.

So the consumer instantly thinks, cheaper, I'll take that one. But not recognising the long term cost it could have even to them. They would also consider the palm oil above other locally produced oils. This failure to see the long term covers all facets.

I do not deny there are many who recognise the long term but the others, again, comes down to either ignorance or the affordability.

I also recognise in America the forests have grown back quite substantially since heavy foresting that went over two centuries. Obviously due to the recognition of conservation and how it is doubly important to respect the environment in that way.

Quote

Pretty much what I had hoped for. This illustrates exactly what I am saying.

Who recognised the problem? Who has qualified the problem? Who has an answer to the problem? And who is doing something about the problem?

We are.
I do not deny we aren't standing idle watching things just get run into the ground. What I am saying is that we tighten our laws, our products increase in price, demand for cheaper goods also increases and in turn those countries with poor policing, high corruption (generally 3rd world countries), and/or inability to control take advantage of the situation.

Can you blame them? A country which has been poor for so long has a chance to make some money and then the 1st world says stop it? However, even they must think realistically. These countries are unmonitored and unregulated and in turn use procedures like giant net fishing to maximise their profit in a short amount of time, extremely damaging to the ecosystem.

Quote

Then I think you may have entered the wrong conversation. I got the impression from Ryegrog that humans are a pretty hopeless species that stumbles around destroying everything. And far too many angsty teens have that perception, and wield it around. I do not doubt corruption is rife, that is business, but I think that a great many of us are trying to make this a better place, even though some do not care what they leave behind for others to clean up.

This I have no doubt is as prevalent in the animal kingdom, if not more so than it is with people. That is where I was going. I think we agree that "we are not all bad".
I don't believe we are all bad, I apologise if I ever implied such. Though as bad as it might be for me to say this, if you could click your fingers and make all those people holding humanity back from just being better disappear from this world would be a million times more desirable to live in. Though my contention was, those in charge call the shots. Whether there are many or few, they control what happens on a grand scale.

Quote

Who is to say that an industrial revolution is not a normal aspect of intelligent evolution? We are simply the first to make it this far.
We definitely could change that fact with cleaner alternatives. Take a look at Germany for example, they have implemented many sustainable and long term alternatives to minimise pollution and use of natural resources.

Quote

The soil is replenished with rotating crops, we now understand even the needs of plants, this is the sort of thing we assist the environment with. If we do not look after it, it does not look after us, and many of us rely on this balance. I think I misunderstood you to be perfectly honest.
Yes, that is what I meant. I think it was due to our disconnection from the environment which led us to stray away. For example in the Narive American culture, they acknowledged this entirely and before any outsider influence came, where in some cases had no choices but to improvise against invading forces, followed it as a way of life.

Quote

But would it push a Dolphin back into the sea? I think this is where we have risen to the next level? We can seem heartless and cruel, but sometimes we just need to look a bit deeper.

I have heard of accounts of animals help each other out in such a way. The elephant would probably have to know the dolphin actually lives in the sea and acknowledge the dolphin is in strife. But who knows really. I think a lot of us are clouded and blinded by materialism. This is quite a driving force leading the environment into the ground for short term personal gains.

Quote

This is perhaps where we got off on the wrong foot. Post I was replying to was this:




I find that an inaccurate statement, and not really fair on humanity.

I also agree with you on that one. I do not deny there are those who exploit it however. But consider the possibility if the dolphin, elephant and whale were in our position. Would they be like us? Would they be better at nurturing the environment than us? Or would they be exactly like us?

Quote

Again, I think we are on the same page, my objection is to seeing humans as some lumbering stupid creature that crushes everything in their path. I think we have earned the right to be considered more than that.
I do believe that destruction is ceasing an we are making a turn for the better. However we have so many big problems right now something will have to be done about them soon and I think something big could happen in our lifetime.


#84    Orcseeker

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 October 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:



Like horses I take it. This practise is centuries old. Why is it a problem now? This is often mutually beneficial, the animal has a hard work life, but need not fear predators or hunger. Many of us take the same option with work.
From what I've seen, a lot of people practice safer and most respectable ways with horses, aiming more to earn the horses trust other than to make it bow down to your will. Whereas with an elephant, more abuse and almost torture is initiated to break its will. An elephant is quite capable of living on its own without much fear of predators. Lions rarely target elephants and will only do so in an act of desperation.

Quote

Ohh, no, that was the crux of my posts!

But with the back rubs..............   .. touche`! ;)
I don't even get them and I'm not even taken captive :(

Quote

War is when we go against each other. This strikes me as something quite different. I would call two grown Elephants in a fight "Warring".

So say for instance when an alien invasion takes place, would we not be at war with the invading aliens?


Quote

I do not think we can expect that. I expect you will find that many of the killers are young bull elephants, still in their "teens" When older more stable male Elephants were introduced to these herds, the younger wilder elephants started to settle down. But I would call that instinct as opposed to intelligence.
I would agree with you, same deal as we see young men fighting on the streets today.


Quote

:tu Fair enough, I think our tangents were not what we thought they were anyway. I think essentially, we are pretty much in agreement. People are not all bad, and animals do not have more respect or insight to the planet than we do. They do what comes naturally. We think ahead.
I do think as a whole on an individual level, animals are more "in touch" with the environment. We are all quite equally capable of such I'm not denying that. A lot of people today have their eyes on their phones and computer screens and become detached from the environment. Not saying you can have both in mutual connection, but some tend to drift away.

On that note, a big issue that we are also facing with our disconnection from nature in the sense that sometimes it cannot take its course. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, two terms which aren't so applicable these days with all the medical assistance available. Our growing life expectancies, higher birth rates, huge young populations only spells disaster. One can only imagine if the worlds population doubled in the next 30 years and the affect that would have.

Which comes back to where I was thinking that something big could happen, we can't continue like this that is a fact.


#85    psyche101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

View PostNuke_em, on 15 October 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Hmmm true, yet universe exists very long. One could say that we came in the picture in early part of its age, so if there are planets like ours (more earth-like ) i would bet a round of beer that there is animal life there, or at least primitive form of life. Hell maybe there is a evolved civilization somewhere but we simply can't know...

I would agree completely. In fact it is not out of the question that some distant galaxy someplace has two humanoids on a forum discussing alien life.

View PostNuke_em, on 15 October 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Our technology is evolving rapidly and i bet that they will soon find something interesting.. if they haven't already who knows? :huh:

I agree. Some estimates say we should find something or someone in 40 years going buy the current rate of finding extra solar planets. I sure hope they are right.

My biggie is comms. I completely believe that first contact will be via communications.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#86    psyche101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:24 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Just because I agreed that elephants and dolphins are capable of violence like us doesn't t change the fact that we destroy our own planet and they don't.

LOL, cranky little so and so aren't ya!

They do destroy the planet. How many cattle methane management programs do our bovines have in place?

What we are is man. There is not 6 billion of anything on earth other than people. If ELephants managed to rise to such a number I bet they would not give a hoot what plants they trample out of extinction, what their numbers are doing to the atmosphere, or so much as put their waste away. We do all that because we are managing the systems around us. Again, you are talking like 1% of the planet, the fat cats who make an easy buck. That is not by any means humanity at all. That is a contingent that bucks the system. People do not approve, and people protest.

Elephants ond Dolphins rely on the ecosystem, they do naught for it. Because you do not see widespread damage only means there is not all that many of them. How many Porpoise breeds are extinct because Dolphins kiled them? We will never know. Animals will drive another species to extinction for their own benefit. We try to find enough for us, and animals, and structure our daily life to accomodate both. How many species did the T Rex stop from evolving to a modern standard? Do they care? The earth relies on all of us too you know. That is how it becomes what it is. We fertilise, beautify, manipulate and create. What do animals do? Eat, sleep kill and die. No morals, no accountability, nothing. We are trying to do something.

After your above post, you have me more confused than anything. If you think you do not sound like you hate humanity, then you are wrong.

View PostRyegrog, on 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Yes we have the intelligence to repair what we fixed but to accomplish that we have to quite damaging.

No we do not. Damage happens in the path of progress. We are the only species that ever cleaned up after themselves. We have a conscience. Well most do.

View PostRyegrog, on 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

BTW...Why don't you have access to Youtube Vids? Does your employer have a block on his Computers. Same on you for wasting  company time.

Yes it is banned at work (I am in charge of IT at work so bloody oath is is banned), but at home I have had it blocked at my router because my kids abuse it. I said this in another thread, you must have missed it.

Shame on your for chastising someone without all the facts!

View PostRyegrog, on 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:



LINK


ScienceActivists Want to Turn Ocean Trash Patch Into Hawaii-sized Green Nation










gPosted Image

Edited by psyche101, 17 October 2012 - 08:25 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#87    psyche101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:54 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

As we are capable of tightening our logging processes in our own countries, there are others who do not police this or are corrupt where it then picks up tenfold due to demand. This short term profit gain which clouds the minds of many who can exploit this situation is the problem.

I agree, however weeding these shady types will take time, no two ways about it. There is only so many places to rape, and eventually they have to be weeded out. I think that is just statistics? As more people become aware of how damaging these individual are, I think it will be harder and harder for them.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I also go agree with you on avoiding these products and spend a little bit more if need be. For example, I try to go for the tuna which has been caught with hook and line other than those huge nets that take in way too many fish and others not intended to be caught from dolphins to stingray.

I did not know we sold that here. I am the only one in the family that eats Tuna, so we do not have it in the house much and I have not noticed the "hook caught" on the label when I buy myself a can. I will keep an eye out for it, thank you for the heads up.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I believe you are also aware of the problem here in Australia primarily with the sale of our own agricultural goods. The supermarkets extremely competitive prices means that farmers can't make a good profit at all. Importing from overseas brings in cheaper goods that makes it hard to compete with prices.

So the consumer instantly thinks, cheaper, I'll take that one. But not recognising the long term cost it could have even to them. They would also consider the palm oil above other locally produced oils. This failure to see the long term covers all facets.

Very aware. I grew up a bit west of the Darling Downs on a broadacre farm, we ran Sheep, Dairy, and crops. Watermelon was a big one (you know where I grew up now :D  )

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I do not deny there are many who recognise the long term but the others, again, comes down to either ignorance or the affordability.

I also recognise in America the forests have grown back quite substantially since heavy foresting that went over two centuries. Obviously due to the recognition of conservation and how it is doubly important to respect the environment in that way.

Indeed, and I think that we learn more every day. Heck, I just learned what to look out for on a Tuna can.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I do not deny we aren't standing idle watching things just get run into the ground. What I am saying is that we tighten our laws, our products increase in price, demand for cheaper goods also increases and in turn those countries with poor policing, high corruption (generally 3rd world countries), and/or inability to control take advantage of the situation.

Can you blame them? A country which has been poor for so long has a chance to make some money and then the 1st world says stop it? However, even they must think realistically. These countries are unmonitored and unregulated and in turn use procedures like giant net fishing to maximise their profit in a short amount of time, extremely damaging to the ecosystem.

No, again, this makes perfect sense, we are in a world that is an a never ending learning cycle. I agree with all of this. Who can say no to a quick buck? The repercussions are rarely properly understood at the onset of any enterprise.


View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I don't believe we are all bad, I apologise if I ever implied such. Though as bad as it might be for me to say this, if you could click your fingers and make all those people holding humanity back from just being better disappear from this world would be a million times more desirable to live in. Though my contention was, those in charge call the shots. Whether there are many or few, they control what happens on a grand scale.

May I apologise. I was a bit snarky after debating some of the more "difficult" posters (not you Rye, you're OK with me) I was probably a bit crankier than I should have been. And I have been doing some stupid long hours of late. This place helps me wind down. I do believe I agree with pretty much everything you have said including the above. Although there are more than just the Fat Cats I'd like to see disappear at the click of a finger ;) Like bad criminals, religious fundies, and perhaps the deliberately ignorant :w00t:

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

We definitely could change that fact with cleaner alternatives. Take a look at Germany for example, they have implemented many sustainable and long term alternatives to minimise pollution and use of natural resources.

Surely you have noticed a massive increase in Solar in Australia over the last 2 years? It went nuts for a bit there, I took advantage myself and put a decent system on the roof. I think we are all getting there, someone has to dive in first is all I think. I have seen proptotypes of future panels, and the future looks bright.

I think each country should seek their own answers. I think New Zealand could benefit from geo-thermal, Tassie and most of the Southern states should benefit from Ocean driven power plants, of which there are many great designs. I think it is a relatively new technology, newer than the Internet. so it is just a matter of time.

LED lighting is going well too, Thats took some time to get of the ground, but it is quite viable now, and an excellent alternative to incandescent lighting. Fraction of the power. Whole houses are being lit by what one or two light bulbs used to draw.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Yes, that is what I meant. I think it was due to our disconnection from the environment which led us to stray away. For example in the Narive American culture, they acknowledged this entirely and before any outsider influence came, where in some cases had no choices but to improvise against invading forces, followed it as a way of life.

I am pretty sure in many of the farming communities that this is a centuries old practise. 3 years crop rotations was common in the middle ages. We still do it as far as I know. We did where I grew up.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I have heard of accounts of animals help each other out in such a way. The elephant would probably have to know the dolphin actually lives in the sea and acknowledge the dolphin is in strife. But who knows really. I think a lot of us are clouded and blinded by materialism. This is quite a driving force leading the environment into the ground for short term personal gains.

I have read cute stories in the paper, but they make it there because they are a rare story. It is not normal for a species to help another species, unless a symbiotic relations ship is in plave, and again, that tends to depend on the environment providing resources.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I also agree with you on that one. I do not deny there are those who exploit it however. But consider the possibility if the dolphin, elephant and whale were in our position. Would they be like us? Would they be better at nurturing the environment than us? Or would they be exactly like us?

If they followed the same industrial revolution, I'd like to think that they would do the same. But I do not think such is possible until a certain state of intelligence is reached. I think we all have to learn by example, and I like to think intelligence gives us that conscience required to give a damn.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I do believe that destruction is ceasing an we are making a turn for the better. However we have so many big problems right now something will have to be done about them soon and I think something big could happen in our lifetime.

We are very much in agreement, I have been thinking the same thing. Oil is not sustainable, and many people have been working hard at this for a long time. My big wonder is will new technology integrate into our current way of life, or will we have to adapt to it?

Thanks for your response, my manners were not around when we first spoke, and I have misjudged you terribly. My apologies. You did not have to be as nice as you were in your reply, I cannot help but respect that.

Edited by psyche101, 17 October 2012 - 09:09 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#88    psyche101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

From what I've seen, a lot of people practice safer and most respectable ways with horses, aiming more to earn the horses trust other than to make it bow down to your will. Whereas with an elephant, more abuse and almost torture is initiated to break its will. An elephant is quite capable of living on its own without much fear of predators. Lions rarely target elephants and will only do so in an act of desperation.

I have been involved in breaking horses. I always thought they were pretty indifferent, but out West we have no Elephants, my experience is limited there, so I will have to take your word on that. :D

It is because an Elephant can live on it's own that I would classify them as destructive when they kill people and destroy villages.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

I don't even get them and I'm not even taken captive :(

Hrrmzz, I think it is more fun the other way......

So I hear!! :w00t:

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

So say for instance when an alien invasion takes place, would we not be at war with the invading aliens?

I would call that two intelligent species and base the commonality on that. I guess it would depend on why we are warring with siad Alien? It might be simply a "police action" :innocent:

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

I would agree with you, same deal as we see young men fighting on the streets today.

Yes, but no accountability, and Elephant does not feel bad if it kills a human. Although Elephants express grief when a herd member dies, I think that is the most rudimentary of instinct, and is not what I would consider accountability, which is what one requires to look after the planet.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

I do think as a whole on an individual level, animals are more "in touch" with the environment. We are all quite equally capable of such I'm not denying that. A lot of people today have their eyes on their phones and computer screens and become detached from the environment. Not saying you can have both in mutual connection, but some tend to drift away.

Agreed, it takes all types, but some people are a little too in touch with the environment............


View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

On that note, a big issue that we are also facing with our disconnection from nature in the sense that sometimes it cannot take its course. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, two terms which aren't so applicable these days with all the medical assistance available. Our growing life expectancies, higher birth rates, huge young populations only spells disaster. One can only imagine if the worlds population doubled in the next 30 years and the affect that would have.

You and I being Aussies, this was quite an issue last year. Some still want a big Australia, but I think the majority consensus is moving toward preserving our way of life and trying to limit ourselves to grow no larger. Hard to see happening, but I live in hope of a small Australia.

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Which comes back to where I was thinking that something big could happen, we can't continue like this that is a fact.

Indeed but I think the aforementioned Germany is a prime example, It went well, so we jumped on the bandwagon, and I hear the septics are considering a solar scheme similar to the one that got so many panels on houses here. They would be crazy not to. Grids need propping up just like they do here, but if you reduce that load and put a million little power plants out there your in a win win situation. The Government got us to save energy, and fix their problems at out expense, and made a deal whereby many where happy to do so!
A Government would be crazy to miss the opportunity IMHO. All they need to do is the same they did here. Jack up the price of electricity so nobody can afford it, and have to either downsize or get solar. Electricity has gone up something like 73% here in the last 5 years. I think the Government should be in court over that!
But all in all, we are doing something, that is what I was trying to get across to Ryegrog. We do not just destroy and move on. Animals do the environment no more favours than we do. Humans are not as bad as so many make out. I feel you and I are on the same page.

Cheers.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#89    Hawkin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:09 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 17 October 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

LOL, cranky little so and so aren't ya!

They do destroy the planet. How many cattle methane management programs do our bovines have in place?

What we are is man. There is not 6 billion of anything on earth other than people. If ELephants managed to rise to such a number I bet they would not give a hoot what plants they trample out of extinction, what their numbers are doing to the atmosphere, or so much as put their waste away. We do all that because we are managing the systems around us. Again, you are talking like 1% of the planet, the fat cats who make an easy buck. That is not by any means humanity at all. That is a contingent that bucks the system. People do not approve, and people protest.

Elephants ond Dolphins rely on the ecosystem, they do naught for it. Because you do not see widespread damage only means there is not all that many of them. How many Porpoise breeds are extinct because Dolphins kiled them? We will never know. Animals will drive another species to extinction for their own benefit. We try to find enough for us, and animals, and structure our daily life to accomodate both. How many species did the T Rex stop from evolving to a modern standard? Do they care? The earth relies on all of us too you know. That is how it becomes what it is. We fertilise, beautify, manipulate and create. What do animals do? Eat, sleep kill and die. No morals, no accountability, nothing. We are trying to do something.

After your above post, you have me more confused than anything. If you think you do not sound like you hate humanity, then you are wrong.



No we do not. Damage happens in the path of progress. We are the only species that ever cleaned up after themselves. We have a conscience. Well most do.



Yes it is banned at work (I am in charge of IT at work so bloody oath is is banned), but at home I have had it blocked at my router because my kids abuse it. I said this in another thread, you must have missed it.

Shame on your for chastising someone without all the facts!




LINK


ScienceActivists Want to Turn Ocean Trash Patch Into Hawaii-sized Green Nation










gPosted Image

WOW! You spend too much time in the closet with your inflated ego.
I provided 2 links for proof on what's happening to this planet and you
disregard them and call me a hate monger. With you it's not about
right or wrong, it's about winning an argument .
It might be all Peaches & Cream in your tiny little world but you need to
get out of the house.

Here's a new avatar befitting for you.

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It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much of it can make you arrogant & egotistical.

#90    AliveInDeath7

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

I don't think so.





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