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#31    Michelle

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:08 PM

There have been many conversations on UM about government health care over the years and from what I've heard it's not all it's cracked up to be. The lines are months long for tests, there is a shortage of doctors and so much is taken out of their checks that they could pay for private insurance.

Like Dixie says...the government screws everything else up and I don't want them in charge of MY families health care, thank you.


#32    InHuman

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:22 PM

Michelle on Aug 28 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

There have been many conversations on UM about government health care over the years and from what I've heard it's not all it's cracked up to be. The lines are months long for tests, there is a shortage of doctors and so much is taken out of their checks that they could pay for private insurance.

Like Dixie says...the government screws everything else up and I don't want them in charge of MY families health care, thank you.


So you'd want to be turned back if you couldn't afford it?

I'm all for a 2 teir system, if you have the cash and can't stand to wait, go to a private hospital, that'll loosen the strain on the public ones, and hopefully shorten the lines.

Also make it easier for immigrants to have their medical skills recognized here. If you come from india and went through med school and served for a decade in a hospital you are still denied a job here because Canada/America dosn't recognize every countries education system and whatnot. I heard that of the few hundred or so immigrant healthcare proffesinals in B.C only a few are lucky enough to get the handful of resident programs that will put them on their way of getting a job here (they have to serve for a year or 2 under supervision and whatnot)..

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#33    Cleomenes

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:25 PM

InHuman on Aug 28 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

So you'd want to be turned back if you couldn't afford it?


That's not at all what happens in the US.  Instead, the poor are given Medicaid coverage and the taxpayers pick up the costs anyway.  The class really getting screwed by the situation in the US is the middle class, not the poor.


#34    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:27 PM

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Also make it easier for immigrants to have their medical skills recognized here. If you come from india and went through med school and served for a decade in a hospital you are still denied a job here because Canada/America dosn't recognize every countries education system and whatnot. I heard that of the few hundred or so immigrant healthcare proffesinals in B.C only a few are lucky enough to get the handful of resident programs that will put them on their way of getting a job here (they have to serve for a year or 2 under supervision and whatnot)..


I don't know much about that but my gut response is that I'd want a doctor from another country to be certified here at least. It should be easier than just a few getting thru, but I wouldn't want a doctor who was educated somewhere else and didn't have some training and certification here.

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#35    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:29 PM

Cleomenes on Aug 28 2008, 03:25 PM, said:

That's not at all what happens in the US.  Instead, the poor are given Medicaid coverage and the taxpayers pick up the costs anyway.  The class really getting screwed by the situation in the US is the middle class, not the poor.


You're so right.

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#36    Michelle

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:30 PM

InHuman on Aug 28 2008, 09:22 PM, said:

So you'd want to be turned back if you couldn't afford it?


You've been listening to too much liberal propaganda. I've got many relatives that have been in and out of hospitals and doctors offices under indigent care and they receive the same care as I do. The only difference is that they have to wait longer like the people in the countries with governement health care. That's what happens when the governement gets involved.


#37    BlindMessiah

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 09:21 PM

InHuman on Aug 28 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

So you'd want to be turned back if you couldn't afford it?

I'm all for a 2 teir system, if you have the cash and can't stand to wait, go to a private hospital, that'll loosen the strain on the public ones, and hopefully shorten the lines.


Ya but then you're paying for facilities you aren't using.


#38    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:15 AM

Dixie-Girl on Aug 28 2008, 01:51 PM, said:

On the VA Clinic and hospital thing I'm speaking from personal experience. My husband is a disabled vet. I promise you, I'm being kind. A hospital stay for us was a nightmare.


Keep in mind that the VA is closer to the British system of health care, where the entire public health care apparatus includes both government-employed service providers and government-provided payment. Most universal health care advocates in the United States aren't advocating we adopt this; they simply argue that we should do something like the Canadian single-payer system (or the French), where the government on different levels pays for health care, and allows private health care providers to organize to meet demand based on the negotiated fee schedules.

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My husband's family in Canada spend hundreds of dollars traveling back to the US when they need surgery or really anything other than cough syrup. In a government run system, when you need urgent surgery, you're placed on a waiting list...it can be many months long.


What kind of surgery, and how urgent? Virtually all the Canadians I've talked to have said that while you have to wait a bit for less urgent medical care, urgent people usually get bumped straight to the front on medical affairs. The main wait issues occur with regards to elective surgery (read the link), and I'm not extremely bothered by that; it allows doctors to choose patients based on the urgency of the problem rather than on how much money you have to pay for care. Better that everybody have access to the some care varying on their need rather than only a few people having access to the best care and most other people thrown into bankruptcy if they hit a major medical cost (namely a chronic cost, before somebody throws the "but emergency centers can not reject people!" line)

Mind you, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Canadian federal government has basically slashed health care funding considerably, to the point where the provinces pay the lion's share of the costs. If they would allocate some more money, then it wouldn't be as much of a problem (but then they wouldn't be close to a balanced budget anymore, like they were a while back).

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You've been listening to too much liberal propaganda. I've got many relatives that have been in and out of hospitals and doctors offices under indigent care and they receive the same care as I do. The only difference is that they have to wait longer like the people in the countries with governement health care. That's what happens when the governement gets involved


Are we talking major illnesses here? And how "indigent" were your relatives? That's not to mention the irony of you criticizing the government for allowing your relatives to get care when without it, it's arguable that they would go without if they weren't on the verge of death.




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#39    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:16 AM

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I'm all for a 2 teir system, if you have the cash and can't stand to wait, go to a private hospital, that'll loosen the strain on the public ones, and hopefully shorten the lines


But then you get rich people buying out of the system, which over time corrodes public support for it on their part.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."  — D.H. Lawrence

#40    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 02:11 AM

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What kind of surgery, and how urgent? Virtually all the Canadians I've talked to have said that while you have to wait a bit for less urgent medical care, urgent people usually get bumped straight to the front on medical affairs. The main wait issues occur with regards to elective surgery (read the link), and I'm not extremely bothered by that


These are hard core people. I mean people who grew up on farms and never wore anything but a pair of workboots and overalls. Definitely not elective surgery. One of my husband's uncles needed some sort of stomach surgery and was put on a six month waiting list, despite his intense pain. He got the cash and drove across the border to have the surgery within two weeks. I have to giggle because these folks I'm talking about would NEVER have elective or unnessecary surgery.

I also read an article on a British news site (it may have been the daily mail). I was about a young woman in her twenties who was dying of cervical cancer. The reason they caught it too late was because the government healthcare system didn't ALLOW her to have a pap smear until she was in her early twenties. This is because of budget shortfalls and is extremely dangerous. A girls' first pap smear should be no later than 16 and each year after that.  It was a heartbreaking story and the article claimed that this is a growing problem. These kinds of stories really want me to keep the government far far away from my health care.

Edited by Dixie-Girl, 29 August 2008 - 02:12 AM.

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#41    SQLserver

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 04:54 PM

Socialism's not all that bad, you know.

We've seen socialism work in places like Sweden, and Norway.

They've developed into extremely academic, richer, high standard of living, countries with low drug rates, crime rates, church rates, and scientifically progressive cultures.

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#42    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 05:02 PM

sqlserver on Aug 29 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

Socialism's not all that bad, you know.

We've seen socialism work in places like Sweden, and Norway.

They've developed into extremely academic, richer, high standard of living, countries with low drug rates, crime rates, church rates, and scientifically progressive cultures.

Cheers,
SQLserver


I just can't agree with a system that takes one man's hard earned money and gives it to another (even though we've got that going on to some extent now).

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#43    SQLserver

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 05:09 PM

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I just can't agree with a system that takes one man's hard earned money and gives it to another (even though we've got that going on to some extent now).


That's the beauty of Socialism; it doesn't do the above.

What Socialism DOES do is take a ridiculously small portion of every rich man's large amount of money("hard earned" or not), and use it for the bettering of all of America, whether it be for Healthcare, college, the environment, education, etc.

Socialism doesn't make everyone "equal" economically; That is Communism. Socialism has everyone contribute a small percentage to help the community as a whole.

And what are the results? Socialist countries get free healthcare, free college, free welfare, and all together a more regulated, peaceful, and friendly community.

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#44    Michelle

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 05:16 PM

Guardsman Bass on Aug 29 2008, 02:15 AM, said:

Are we talking major illnesses here? And how "indigent" were your relatives? That's not to mention the irony of you criticizing the government for allowing your relatives to get care when without it, it's arguable that they would go without if they weren't on the verge of death.


I've had several uncles and cousins that have never officially had a home. They live in campers on whoevers property will allow it, moving often,  only working enough to buy what they need for a few days. They've gotten free health care for everything from the flu and shingles to later in life one of my uncles was in and out the hospital for months before he died of cancer at the age of 87. Like most normal people they have never hesitated to go the doctor/clinic for anything that needed attention and it was taken care of.



Where did I criticize the government for allowing anyone to get health care? What I was criticizing was the long waits. At least some people that are on Medicaid are trying to work and better their situations which means that they miss work for a whole day waiting at the clinic, sometimes two. When I go to the doctor I wait maybe fifteen minutes, see the doctor, and am back at work in about an hour and a half. If I need tests they are scheduled within the same week or sometimes that day, but they have to wait for weeks or months sometimes.

Edited by Michelle, 29 August 2008 - 05:41 PM.


#45    Startraveler

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 02:46 AM

There was very nearly a real discussion of policy on here. Excellent. But I think this one is a little too ambitious--health care, poverty, tax policy, etc all in one thread? More of these, targeted a bit more, might be interesting.

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Nationalized health care, in addition to some of the economic ideas being thrown out there really sound alot like Socialism to me.


We should be careful with terminology here. "Nationalized health care" usually refers to actual government-run health care (i.e. government doctors, government hospitals, etc), which neither Obama nor the Democratic Party is proposing. We should also be careful not to try and find a label with which to pigeonhole an idea. Let's look at ideas based on the merits, not the ideological label.

The goal of Obama's plan is to make health insurance available to anyone who desires it, regardless of income level primarily via subsidies (unlike the Clinton and Edwards plans, Obama's does not mandate that everyone have insurance, although it does put a mandate on "children," i.e. people under 25). A public plan would also be made available, providing the option of getting insurance through the government instead of private insurers. But this is insurance, not nationalized health care. You would take your insurance and find a private doctor just as you do now.

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Raising taxes on small businesses and a majority of Americans...


Obama proposes a tax cut for the majority of households (see below). As for small businesses, I'm not sure where you heard he wants to raise taxes on them. In fact, as far as health care goes, Obama would like to see small businesses get a tax credit:

Barack Obama will create a Small Business Health Tax Credit to provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees. This new credit will provide a strong incentive to small businesses to offer high quality health care to their workers and help improve the competitiveness of America’s small businesses.


A truly universal health care system would aid businesses--small and large--by removing some of the burden of health care costs they face. Caps on wage raises during World War II--an effort to control inflation--led businesses to look for other ways to attract workers. This is how employer-based health care became institutionalized in this country. But today American companies are competing in the global marketplace with companies in nations that already have government-sponsored health care (as nearly every other industrialized nation in the world does) and thus don't have to shoulder the costs by themselves. It's time to enter the 21st century.

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so that we can have more government programs for the poor is the biggest example. Taxing families and companies in order to put that money towards erasing or minimizing our "carbon footprint" is another. Am I wrong here?


Well, why do you oppose anti-poverty and environmental policies?

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Everything I've seen, read and heard has me convinced that Americans with wages as low as $39,000 will see a tax increase.


Well, that's incorrect. The Tax Policy Center put out an analysis of the Obama and McCain tax plans recently and found that the majority of Americans will get a tax cut under the Obama plan (whereas the McCain tax cuts are clustered at the very top of the income scale):

The two candidates' plans would have sharply different distributional effects. Senator McCain's tax cuts would primarily benefit those with very high incomes, almost all of whom would receive large tax cuts that would, on average, raise their after-tax incomes by more than twice the average for all households. Many fewer households at the bottom of the income distribution would get tax cuts and those whose taxes fall would, on average, see their after-tax income rise much less. In marked contrast, Senator Obama offers much larger tax breaks to low- and middle-income taxpayers and would increase taxes on high-income taxpayers. The largest tax cuts, as a share of income, would go to those at the bottom of the income distribution, while taxpayers with the highest income would see their taxes rise.



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Unless you attack a problem at its root, it won't improve. Rather than seeking for the government to save us, we should seek to save ourselves.


As someone pointed out above, in our system we are our government. Government is the means through which we come together to both save ourselves and save each other. "Of the people, by the people, for the people..." and all that jazz.

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Where in the Constitution does it say that government ( tax payers ) is responsible for paying for everyone's health care ?


I think it's well-established that the purpose of government, loosely put, it to protect, defend, and foster fundamental human rights. We decide as a people what those rights are. The United States is a signatory of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, Article 25 of which states:

      (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

      (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


Now, six decades later, polling consistently shows a majority in support of universal health care.

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Government run healthcare in Canada, France and Britian is failing. Why would it work here. If you've ever tried to get medical services in a VA Hospital or Clinic, you know what the future of American healthcare will be like under Obama. "Take a number please..."


The VA consistently ranks as the best aspect of the United States health care system, your own anecdotes aside. But Obama isn't pushing for a single-payer system, as explained above.

I have a question for you: do you believe that some Americans should be deprived of health care so that others get it faster?


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That's not at all what happens in the US. Instead, the poor are given Medicaid coverage and the taxpayers pick up the costs anyway. The class really getting screwed by the situation in the US is the middle class, not the poor.


The majority of the uninsured poor are not eligible for Medicaid.





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