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Wealth Distribution.


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#31    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Am I a communist - funny. just an average Jo who can see things going very bad and a happy future for my children getting harder to find.
Corruption is rampant across America, the UK and Ireland - countries where "wealth" expanded massively among a tiny minority over the last 30years. Last time I looked it was the corruption of the American and UK financial markets which has brought the world economy to its knees and consigned the Western nations to a terminal decline.
You can point the finger at China and Russia all you like - but that doesn't diminish the rampant corruption in you own back garden under your own system.

The evidence of the last 5 years shows that the business community, markets and governments were in a virtuous circle of turning a blind eye to rampant market corruption - and it all happened because it was opaque to society because of a light regulatory touch and a regulator who was asleep on the job, and it is still going on  at a massive scale.

Br Cornelius

I live near a housing estate which is full of people with criminal records, drug and alcohol addictions, no qualifications and anti-social tendancies. These things are responsible for their deprived situations not a corrupt financial situation. From my life experiences your perceptions of some kind of conspiracy to keep people poor is just wrong.


#32    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

I live near a housing estate which is full of people with criminal records, drug and alcohol addictions, no qualifications and anti-social tendancies. These things are responsible for their deprived situations not a corrupt financial situation. From my life experiences your perceptions of some kind of conspiracy to keep people poor is just wrong.
I wouldn't stand up for any one of them, but this is classic blaming the victim for his circumstances. Its a right wing play which allows them to take no responsibility for the state of the nation and their part in how it got that way. Do you not think that when the jobs were there, every one of them was just an average Jo working to put bread on the table. The jobs flew away because it was cheaper to get the work done in China. Result , an underclass and a permanently broken society. I blame the people who took the work away.

i do not and never have thought of it as a conspiracy to keep people poor. I see it as an inevitable end point of Neo-Liberal economic theory, its the reality and downside of the fantasy of trickle down economics and a rising tide lifts all boats. It doesn't, Neo-Liberal economic theory consistently empoverishes a large proportion of the society it is applied to - there is ample evidence of how it increases wealth disparity where ever it is tried. If it was a conspiracy, it was a conspiracy of the naive to believe the  self serving hype of a bunch of Ivory Tower economists that never had to face the consequences of their "perfectly Functioning market" in practice.

About inherited wealth, an interesting article;

http://blogs.wsj.com...herited-wealth/

It also masks the fact that most wealth these days is vested in corporations rather than individuals.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 04:44 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#33    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't stand up for any one of them, but this is classic blaming the victim for his circumstances. Its a right wing play which allows them to take no responsibility for the state of the nation and their part in how it got that way. Do you not think that when the jobs were there, every one of them was just an average Jo working to put bread on the table. The jobs flew away because it was cheaper to get the work done in China. Result , an underclass and a permanently broken society. I blame the people who took the work away.

i do not and never have thought of it as a conspiracy to keep people poor. I see it as an inevitable end point of Neo-Liberal economic theory, its the reality and downside of the fantasy of trickle down economics and a rising tide lifts all boats. It doesn't, Neo-Liberal economic theory consistently empoverishes a large proportion of the society it is applied to - there is ample evidence of how it increases wealth disparity where ever it is tried. If it was a conspiracy, it was a conspiracy of the naive to believe the  self serving hype of a bunch of Ivory Tower economists that never had to face the consequences of their "perfectly Functioning market" in practice.

About inherited wealth, an interesting article;

http://blogs.wsj.com...herited-wealth/

It also masks the fact that most wealth these days is vested in corporations rather than individuals.

Br Cornelius

People tend to believe that how they see things is how everybody else sees them. What life experiences have led you to your perceptions?

Edited by Giant Killer B, 04 April 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#34    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

People tend to believe that how they see things is how everybody else sees them. What life experiences have led you to your perceptions?
My position on Neo-Liberalism is based on evidence.
My position on the underclass is just plain old vanilla common sense. Also I had the privilage of living through Margaret Thatchers revolution and not getting suckered into morgaging my life away.

You don't have to sympathize with a criminal to understand why he might have chosen his path in life, and that it probably wasn't want he wanted out of life.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 05:19 PM.

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Robert Anton Wilson

#35    Capt Amerika

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

I have found that if you quit focusing on the 1% and mind your own damn business, you can make your own life better.
I dont care how big the gap is between my annual pay and that of Obama or Kerry or Romney.
All i care about is that i am happy and that i have the OPPORTUNITY to make my salary increase if i so choose to put in the extra effort.
The main reason the Middle class is growing stagnant is because the Govt keeps trying to prop up the lower class at the expense of the middle class.
If you work your rear off all day and are dirt poor, you need to re-evaluate your situation.
I grew up dirt poor, single parent, two kids.
I am happy as can be right now as a middle class person raising a family.  I dont let the fact that others make more than i do bother me.
The words "disparity" and "redistribution" truly sicken me when words like "Education" and "Opportunity" are out there to counter them.
There will not be civil unrest as long as there is freedom of choice.   Show me a poor person and i'll show you a person who blames everyone but themselves.
Look at the High School drop out rate.  its close to 30%.  There is the beginning of the next generation of poor who will sit back and complain and take from the govt.
Yet its those darn rich peoples fault.
Give me a break.


#36    Bama13

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:


Corruption thrives when people become guettoized into rich and poor neighbourhoods and we see our fellow citizens as our enemies.

Br Cornelius

Yet you seem to view the rich as your enemy, even though they are fellow citizens. Hmm...

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#37    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

My position on Neo-Liberalism is based on evidence.
My position on the underclass is just plain old vanilla common sense. Also I had the privilage of living through Margaret Thatchers revolution and not getting suckered into morgaging my life away.

You don't have to sympathize with a criminal to understand why he might have chosen his path in life, and that it probably wasn't want he wanted out of life.

Br Cornelius

The cultures which exist within the lower classes have a destructive impact on their life prospects. The rich havent given them that culture they have through their own negativity. The 'us and them' mentality which they have is their own creation. The only thing I think is unfair is parents inducting their children with their own deeply flawed mindsets. However we live in a free society so it isnt the role of the government to nanny the children.

The door remains open for anybody in the lower classes who shows that they have the skills, passion and drive to make something of their lives if they obey the law. Nobody holds them back and I'll think you'll find those in middle/higher classes are quite impressed by someone who has the strength of character to increase their social mobility. However attitudes such as 'you're all corrupt' and 'I'm entitled to everything' get you nowhere exept attitude back.

Edited by Giant Killer B, 04 April 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#38    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostBama13, on 04 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Yet you seem to view the rich as your enemy, even though they are fellow citizens. Hmm...
Not really, I see the system we operate as the enemy of us all - rich and poor.

I am happy with what I have, which is very modest and do not envy anyone with greater wealth - but that doesn't mean that I am happy to see a system which fails to serve the needs of most of its citizens, with little prospect of improvement into the forseeable future.

I really do see civil unrest as the inevitable consequence of the situation that persists in America - and that can't be good for any of us.

Br Cornelius

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#39    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 04 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I have found that if you quit focusing on the 1% and mind your own damn business, you can make your own life better.
I dont care how big the gap is between my annual pay and that of Obama or Kerry or Romney.
All i care about is that i am happy and that i have the OPPORTUNITY to make my salary increase if i so choose to put in the extra effort.
The main reason the Middle class is growing stagnant is because the Govt keeps trying to prop up the lower class at the expense of the middle class.
If you work your rear off all day and are dirt poor, you need to re-evaluate your situation.
I grew up dirt poor, single parent, two kids.
I am happy as can be right now as a middle class person raising a family.  I dont let the fact that others make more than i do bother me.
The words "disparity" and "redistribution" truly sicken me when words like "Education" and "Opportunity" are out there to counter them.
There will not be civil unrest as long as there is freedom of choice.   Show me a poor person and i'll show you a person who blames everyone but themselves.
Look at the High School drop out rate.  its close to 30%.  There is the beginning of the next generation of poor who will sit back and complain and take from the govt.
Yet its those darn rich peoples fault.
Give me a break.

Applause

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Not really, I see the system we operate as the enemy of us all - rich and poor.

I am happy with what I have, which is very modest and do not envy anyone with greater wealth - but that doesn't mean that I am happy to see a system which fails to serve the needs of most of its citizens, with little prospect of improvement into the forseeable future.

I really do see civil unrest as the inevitable consequence of the situation that persists in America - and that can't be good for any of us.

Br Cornelius

It really does sound like envy to me.


#40    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 04 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I have found that if you quit focusing on the 1% and mind your own damn business, you can make your own life better.
I dont care how big the gap is between my annual pay and that of Obama or Kerry or Romney.
All i care about is that i am happy and that i have the OPPORTUNITY to make my salary increase if i so choose to put in the extra effort.
The main reason the Middle class is growing stagnant is because the Govt keeps trying to prop up the lower class at the expense of the middle class.
If you work your rear off all day and are dirt poor, you need to re-evaluate your situation.
I grew up dirt poor, single parent, two kids.
I am happy as can be right now as a middle class person raising a family.  I dont let the fact that others make more than i do bother me.
The words "disparity" and "redistribution" truly sicken me when words like "Education" and "Opportunity" are out there to counter them.
There will not be civil unrest as long as there is freedom of choice.   Show me a poor person and i'll show you a person who blames everyone but themselves.
Look at the High School drop out rate.  its close to 30%.  There is the beginning of the next generation of poor who will sit back and complain and take from the govt.
Yet its those darn rich peoples fault.
Give me a break.

Well said!

This countries current problem is the middle class being drained and leached upon to help prop up the welfare state.I do not worry about the top 1% as they do pay their fair share in taxes,and they do have and make valuable everyday things we have become dependent upon.

My problem is...for one example

I know a guy who lives a few blocks away from me,he has never had a job in his entire life,has 4 kids with 3 different women,wears extremely high cost clothes,shoes,jewelry...Has 2 very nice almost brand new cars,went to college on scholarship to play basketball,etc.

This guy can barely read,yet somehow got free money to go to college...4 kids that get fed with taxpayers dollars....has been to jail numerous times,yet still walks free...And still has all of this nice s**t.Cant blame all that on the 1%

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#41    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

The cultures which exist within the lower classes have a destructive impact on their life prospects. The rich havent given them that culture they have through their own negativity. The 'us and them' mentality which they have is their own creation. The only thing I think is unfair is parents inducting their children with their own deeply flawed mindsets. However we live in a free society so it isnt the role of the government to nanny the children.

The door remains open for anybody in the lower classes who shows that they have the skills, passion and drive to make something of their lives if they obey the law. Nobody holds them back and I'll think you'll find those in middle/higher classes are quite impressed by someone who has the strength of character to increase their social mobility. However attitudes such as 'you're all corrupt' and 'I'm entitled to everything' get you nowhere exept attitude back.
Evidence on class mobility - and its decline - disproves your assertion.
We do all indeed have choices, but for many those choices are massively constrained by their circumstances.

America is broken.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#42    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Applause



It really does sound like envy to me.
You would be totally wrong, and that is your prism which says more about you than it does about me.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#43    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 April 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well said!

This countries current problem is the middle class being drained and leached upon to help prop up the welfare state.I do not worry about the top 1% as they do pay their fair share in taxes,and they do have and make valuable everyday things we have become dependent upon.

My problem is...for one example

I know a guy who lives a few blocks away from me,he has never had a job in his entire life,has 4 kids with 3 different women,wears extremely high cost clothes,shoes,jewelry...Has 2 very nice almost brand new cars,went to college on scholarship to play basketball,etc.

This guy can barely read,yet somehow got free money to go to college...4 kids that get fed with taxpayers dollars....has been to jail numerous times,yet still walks free...And still has all of this nice s**t.Cant blame all that on the 1%

The state is too soft on them.

I think they should enforce conscription for those kinds of people and make them work to pay for their children.


#44    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:12 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Evidence on class mobility - and its decline - disproves your assertion.
We do all indeed have choices, but for many those choices are massively constrained by their circumstances.

America is broken.

Br Cornelius

http://en.wikipedia....ntry_comparison (graph about halfway down)

The UK and US (those individualistic rather than communist countries you dont like) have the highest social mobility of all developed countries.


#45    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

The state is too soft on them.

I think they should enforce conscription for those kinds of people and make them work to pay for their children.

Agreed,but whole cultures have now been taught this way of life since birth and the gov has made this possible.After all its just equality in action  ;)

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu




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