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And the Sun Stood Still


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#31    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 March 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

It is also stated that one cannot go faster than light in physics, but there are cheats around the issue, which do NOT contradict the physics. I mentioned one earlier. That completely circumvents the entire scene your video proposes.

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#32    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:58 PM

You are talking God here, but not just any God -- you are talking Jehovah.  Of course he can make the sun stand still.  End of debate.


#33    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:10 PM

In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.


#34    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.

Why did he create the physical laws of our universe? So that our universe could exist, without those laws there wouldn't be a universe. You can't just play with working laws and not expect consequences, that I think applies to everything you have said. When God does interfere he will use those same laws to his advantage If God can manipulate time and its flow, then everything on that video id BS and stupid to even consider, since time manipulation will allow you to do everything that is needed to satisfy the text.

http://wattsupwithth...en-right-again/

If you can manipulate the physical universe you don't have to go breaking the laws of physics to get the effect you need.

The big problem is that you are trying to do so without quite knowing what it is you need to do. I don't need a million or trillion tons of explosive to stop the earth in its tracks, If you can manipulate time and gravity you get the same result for pretty much zero energy wastage.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

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#35    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:20 PM

Sorry for the typos etc.. I'm on my phone lol. I'd like to add that is not my video. I just linked to it. We're dealing with a being that exists outside if space and time yet is subject to the laws of sin or at least must pay for sin in some way with a sacrifice of himself/ his son within our physical universe  yet is not subject to physical laws of the universe. I'm. Not attempting to question your faith or anything I'm just confused by the possibility of the story entirely. I mean.. If the earth suddenly stopped spinning... The video clearly describes the consequences of such an occurrence. You can defer to deified magic I suppose, that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree there my friend.


#36    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:24 PM

It's not what you would need to cause the earth to stop spinning that intrigues me its the results of doing so and again, the idea that Jehovah apparently needs a sacrifice within our physical reality in order to compensate for sin but is not subject to the physical laws of that same reality. It makes no sense to me personally.


#37    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Sorry for the typos etc.. I'm on my phone lol. I'd like to add that is not my video. I just linked to it. We're dealing with a being that exists outside if space and time yet is subject to the laws of sin or at least must pay for sin in some way with a sacrifice of himself/ his son within our physical universe  yet is not subject to physical laws of the universe. I'm. Not attempting to question your faith or anything I'm just confused by the possibility of the story entirely. I mean.. If the earth suddenly stopped spinning... The video clearly describes the consequences of such an occurrence. You can defer to deified magic I suppose, that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree there my friend.

I'm not deferring to magic of any kind, I'm stating that the laws of the universe to not prohibit said effects. As I said, God does not make the laws then go about interrupting them when he feels like it, but he can manipulate them. As I said earlier, we have theoretical solutions to doing just that in physics, we could do exactly the same if we knew how.

I would also add that God is NOT subject to the law of sin. That is a uniquely human condition as such it can only be overcome within the context of the human condition.

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#38    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

It's not what you would need to cause the earth to stop spinning that intrigues me its the results of doing so and again, the idea that Jehovah apparently needs a sacrifice within our physical reality in order to compensate for sin but is not subject to the physical laws of that same reality. It makes no sense to me personally.

Does the text state in any way that anything actually stopped? Or did the witness merely state the effects he himself witnessed irrespective of what was actually happening?

If time flowed on earth at a significantly different tempo than the rest of the universe, you would have exactly the effect described, The sun and moon would seem to stop in the sky. If you could percieve events at 100 times that of normal, the rest of the world would also seem to pause, even if no such thing actually happened. Such an event doesn't need all the hallabaloo that the video proposed.

As for your comment on Jehova, I think I answered that in my earlier post.

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#39    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic. secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter? He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!


#40    Sherapy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic. secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter? He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

You know you bring in an interesting point here. If Jesus was the egocentric personification of g-d, needing to be brought from the supernatural realm into physical realm to forgive g-d's mistake of creating beings that acted on their dual nature (sin) and  to cancel out the consequence of death not only did that fail. (humans still have dual natures and they still act on them and death is the reality for us all eventually.) It seems  confusing to me too and when it is this confusing for me this is a clear sign of "Houston we have a problem."




#41    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

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Let me put it to you just one small thing you forget, God, as far as I know continues to be God, the maker of this universe, the maker of the laws which govern this universe. If he wants to suspend the rotation of the earth for a day, he can certainly do so, or are you somehow going to argue against that?

No, I never argue against hypotheses. "If He wants to..." Yes, but that's not what He did. If God wants, He can do everything but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.

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From the outlook of the witness, the sun stood still, not the earth, even though it would have been the earth itself that ceased to rotate. The moon would also have stopped in its orbit around the earth. In effect the entire earth moon system would have been affected without touching the rest of the universe.  A time dilation bubble around the earth/moon system would explain everything within the text.

Hypothetical language again.

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And while this would sound like science fiction, it is not impossible even within the rules of our universe.

Hypothetically, you mean?

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That being said, I personally believe that this was all caused by a meteor as I proposed earlier and what we have here is a garbled version of an eyewitness account to the event which helped the Israelites conquer the promised land. In either position, God intervened in a way only he could accomplish and we can only praise him for his majesty and greatness.

The man who wrote the book of Joshua was not a witness of the fact. Baruch de Spinoza believed that Ezra was the one thousands of years later. Therefore, embelishment was the word.

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PS - in regard to Luke being a parable, it is that, there is no denying it, but it is also a parable that as you say teaches us about the spiritual world. The truth of it is no less unsettling, what you plant today, you will reap in the beyond, whether you believe in hell or not is something I'll leave to you.

Usually, within the parable itself is the reason why the parable was forwarded. In the case of the Richman and Lazarus it was to enhance the validity of the Law that Jesus had not come to change or to abolish as his answer to the question was in Mat. 5:17-19.

Ben


#42    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Aerthur C. Clarke was good at his job, but guess what, he was not a fantasy writer, he wrote science fiction. As such, we may not be able to do alot of the things he described now, but they are far from impossible.

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secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.

Quite simply because of mankind. It is we who are subject to the laws of sin, it is we who need redemption and salvation, not God, What he did, he did for us, not for himself.

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To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter?

For us, it is hard to swallow but nonetheless true.

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He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

If I died saving my son, would I be thought as stupid and crazy?

No I don't think so, so I wonder why people have such a hard time thinking it strange that God would do something in the same vein?

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#43    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 March 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

I have so much considered the physical factor that I came to the logical conclusion that the phenomenon was not physical but poetic. Therefore, it could never have been literal but metaphorical pointing to the arresting of the kings in the cave of Makkedah which caused the confusion of the armies without a leader as to become an easy target at the hands of the Israelites. Simply commonsense.

Ben


#44    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

No, I never argue against hypotheses. "If He wants to..." Yes, but that's not what He did. If God wants, He can do everything but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.



Hypothetical language again.



Hypothetically, you mean?



The man who wrote the book of Joshua was not a witness of the fact. Baruch de Spinoza believed that Ezra was the one thousands of years later. Therefore, embelishment was the word.



Usually, within the parable itself is the reason why the parable was forwarded. In the case of the Richman and Lazarus it was to enhance the validity of the Law that Jesus had not come to change or to abolish as his answer to the question was in Mat. 5:17-19.

Ben

My dear Ben when it comes to hypotheses, yours are not significantly better than mine, are we now arguing how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

All we can do, (even you) is provide possibilites. None of us were there, none of can go back in time and none of us have evidence of the events one way or another, you say metaphor, I say, time dilation or simply a comet...

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-C. S. Lewis


#45    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects.  Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.

True that time can stop with inertia since time is an accident of motion, but we are dealing with man and to do so, we are getting into sicence fiction and not poetic reality.

Ben





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