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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'


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#31    Likely Guy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:43 AM

And in turn; No true evidence that explains the phenomena as non human = human creation of some of these designs.

Edit: Oh crap. Yeah, Occam's Razor. You brought that up, which deduces that it was human creation, of all those designs.

Edited by Likely Guy, 09 January 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#32    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:59 AM

View PostArchimedes, on 09 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Occam's Razor says no such thing.

Occam's Razor says that it's generally a bad idea to postulate the existence of something unproven and unknown to explain something else for which you don't have an explanation for.

Which is exactly what  you are doing - you are arguing that some crop circles don't have a proven explanation in terms of the known, therefore there must be an unknown non-human intelligence responsible.  That is exactly what Occam's Razor suggests you should not do - asserting the existence of some unknown complex phenomenon (non-human intelligence) to explain a known and less-complex phenomenon (certain crop circles).

You have entirely misunderstood and misapplied Occam's principle.

But that is just your mind set. No one in many years has found a satisfactory explanation for the effects on the plants recorded in some crop circles.
Therefore one must look at all possibilities because no human explanation fits the bill.
You may think that a supernatural explanation is outside Occum's Razor but it is not because there is no other explanation... is there?
You may say that we just don't yet know how humans make them..... but I say until you do... there are some crop design that may be of non human origin
and may contain important messages...


#33    Slave2Fate

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

But that is just your mind set. No one in many years has found a satisfactory explanation for the effects on the plants recorded in some crop circles.
Therefore one must look at all possibilities because no human explanation fits the bill.
You may think that a supernatural explanation is outside Occum's Razor but it is not because there is no other explanation... is there?
You may say that we just don't yet know how humans make them..... but I say until you do... there are some crop design that may be of non human origin
and may contain important messages...

May being the operative word. There is nothing wrong with forming an opinion on the matter given insufficient evidence however to state that something is fact because of it is something most rational people balk at.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#34    Likely Guy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:18 AM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:



But that is just your mind set. No one in many years has found a satisfactory explanation for the effects on the plants recorded in some crop circles.
Therefore one must look at all possibilities because no human explanation fits the bill.
You may think that a supernatural explanation is outside Occum's Razor but it is not because there is no other explanation... is there?
You may say that we just don't yet know how humans make them..... but I say until you do... there are some crop design that may be of non human origin
and may contain important messages...

Your simplistic explanation lends far more questions. You truly don't understand the concept of Occam's Razor.

You said, "You may think that a supernatural explanation is outside Occum's Razor but it is not because there is no other explanation... is there?"

No, there is no supernatural evidence. To prove your point, you have to prove the point of your supernatural evidence.

Occam's Razor, the point you're trying to use, being logical, stands there, shaking it's head.

Laver, stop and think. You're trying to use the most logical argument, to prove an illogical premise.


#35    psyche101

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

But it does not stack up. Science has been trying to disprove the evidence in crop designs for years and have now come up with a
totally implausable theory that humans run around at night in the dark with some sort of microwave device complete with batteries or generators
to try and replicate the evidence of microwave effects on the crops. It is a laughable suggestion if you think of the practical implications in southern Britain
which is the focal point of crop circle activity and where these designs have appeared with no evident human involvement in very short spaces of time. So
it is not true and Occum's Razor needs true evidence as Newton said. No true evidence that explains the phenomena as human = non human creation of some of these
designs


You know in 1678, the Hypothesis was that a Mowing Devil did this.

Was that ever proven incorrect?

The very fact that groups of hoaxers have gone out with the intention of creating crop circles, have done so, and in one night, and have taped the entire thing means nothing to you? It has been done, now that the mystery has been proven on tape, some crackpot Microwave idea there is now out there?

There is just no end to the silliness is there. None at all. It's like space. Maybe that is the connection.

Edited by psyche101, 09 January 2013 - 08:10 AM.

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#36    psyche101

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:52 AM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

But that is just your mind set. No one in many years has found a satisfactory explanation for the effects on the plants recorded in some crop circles.
Therefore one must look at all possibilities because no human explanation fits the bill.
You may think that a supernatural explanation is outside Occum's Razor but it is not because there is no other explanation... is there?
You may say that we just don't yet know how humans make them..... but I say until you do... there are some crop design that may be of non human origin
and may contain important messages...


Did you not say there was another explanation but you do not buy it?

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

' We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are true and explain their appearance'   -- Isaac Newton

Evidence from crop designs shows that some are made by the use of some sort of microwave energy, or similar, with evidence of heating to the plants to get them to bend
Recent proposals to explain this suggest that humans are using some sort of microwave device to create crop designs
This cannot be true
as there is no evidence of human technology or ability to create large designs in this way or that there is a way to power such a device in the locations and circumstances where these designs suddenly appear
So those crop design that show evidence of 'microwave' heating must be of non human origin
It is the simplest solution  - Occum's Razor in practice


Edited by psyche101, 09 January 2013 - 07:52 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#37    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostLikely Guy, on 09 January 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Back to the OP.

"Apply the principle of Occum's Razor and some Crop Designs cannot be of human origin"

Name one. And if you go back to the 'PI circle', you should go back to the answers that were given to in the original thread that you posited.

What is different about this thread, than the last one that you opened?

This is about the strange phenomena of some crop circles and the people who for some reason try to maintain that they are not a
mystery at all when the factual evidence is that we might be wise to look at them very carefully

The other thread is more about what they might mean

Hopefully that is clear


#38    psyche101

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:58 AM

View PostTimonthy, on 09 January 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Our scientists what now?

Please expand... ;)

Also the OP is wrong. Humans are by far the simplest and most logical explanation.

Can I echo this please.



Posted Image



Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#39    Timonthy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:48 AM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

But it does not stack up. Science has been trying to disprove the evidence in crop designs for years and have now come up with a
totally implausable theory that humans run around at night in the dark with some sort of microwave device complete with batteries or generators
to try and replicate the evidence of microwave effects on the crops. It is a laughable suggestion if you think of the practical implications in southern Britain
which is the focal point of crop circle activity and where these designs have appeared with no evident human involvement in very short spaces of time. So
it is not true and Occum's Razor needs true evidence as Newton said. No true evidence that explains the phenomena as human = non human creation of some of these
designs
There is no evidence that they need to disprove.

They can be done in a short space of time.

The 'microwave effects' aren't even a proven thing.

Sooooooooooooooo you accept dodgy evidence and then say it must be true because scientists don't want to disprove something that's made up to support E.T crop circle theory.

Posted Image


#40    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:26 PM

View PostTimonthy, on 09 January 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

There is no evidence that they need to disprove.

They can be done in a short space of time.

The 'microwave effects' aren't even a proven thing.

Sooooooooooooooo you accept dodgy evidence and then say it must be true because scientists don't want to disprove something that's made up to support E.T crop circle theory.

The microwave affects have been known about and researched for many years, a look on the internet will tell you that. Some plants which will not normally bend more than 45 degrees without breaking are laid down at 90 degrees and are still growing! This cannot be replicated by human crop circle makers. This effect is achieved using some sort of microwave radiation evident in the plant stems. So we do not have a viable case for human creation of all crop designs and some are made using tehniques which are beyond human capability. Hence the only conclusion has to be that the source of these designs is supernatural and Occum's Razor is quite valid because this is the simplest explanation which fits the known facts, it is in fact the only explanation that fits these facts.
Whereas it may be difficult for some people to accept a supernatural explanation these are the facts of the case and we can then move forward to consider why we are getting this phenomena and if there are any spiritual messages to be understood


#41    Sweetpumper

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

These circles are made by rods.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated."
- Hunt for the Skinwalker

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#42    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 09 January 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

These circles are made by rods.

Could you explain?


#43    Hasina

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:



Could you explain?
'Rods' are some kind of cryptids that are presumed to be some sort of insect. It's supposed to fly really fast or something, only modern video equipment can pick them up. That's what I've heard about them.

Edited by Hasina, 09 January 2013 - 03:50 PM.

Posted Image

~MEH~


#44    Sweetpumper

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Posted Image

Rods.  Skyfish.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated."
- Hunt for the Skinwalker

"So many people forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own." Dr. Abraham Erskine

#45    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostHasina, on 09 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

'Rods' are some kind of cryptids that are presumed to be some sort of insect. It's supposed to fly really fast or something, only modern video equipment can pick them up. That's what I've heard about them.

Thanks for that - never heard of them - will look it up





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