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Drake Equation on Alien Life Has Been Revised


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#46    scowl

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:07 PM

View Postlost_shaman, on 19 September 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Scowl, its estimated that life could thrive in the subsurface of Mars as much as 7 times deeper than life does here on Earth.

Which shows that exobiology is nothing more than unprovable theories.

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And what do you mean by saying no food source?

Life needs energy to survive and reproduce. Tell me, what energy exists under the surface of Mars? You have no sunlight and everything suggests that Mars has an ice cold internal core so no heat.


#47    lost_shaman

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:39 AM

View Postscowl, on 19 September 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:



Which shows that exobiology is nothing more than unprovable theories.



Life needs energy to survive and reproduce. Tell me, what energy exists under the surface of Mars? You have no sunlight and everything suggests that Mars has an ice cold internal core so no heat.

No it shows microbes potentially have alot more space to thrive underground on Mars than they do on Earth.

And you really claim to have so much knowledge about geology?

Well if you really did... you would know that there is no way Mars is ice cold to the core as you claimed. Its thought that because of radioactive decay that the Mantel of Mars is around 1,500 deg. F. This is why such a large percentage of the thick Martian crust falls into a tempurature range that could support life.

As for food? What do you suppose these deep underground microbes on Earth are "eating"? You do know there is no sunlight right?

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#48    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:50 AM

The problem I have with Martian life, unless it is of Terran origin (or we are of Martian origin -- both of which are highly unlikely) is that extremophiles are evolved from non-extremophiles, which implies that you need a more benign environment to get life started.


#49    bison

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 04:10 PM

Recent work on Mars seems to strongly indicate that its ancient environment wasn't particularly 'extreme'. The red planet appears to have once had an ocean, flowing water, and a much more substantial atmosphere than it does at present. An ocean and relatively dense atmosphere would tend to moderate day/night extremes of temperature.


#50    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

Quote

Recent work on Mars seems to strongly indicate that its ancient environment wasn't particularly 'extreme'. The red planet appears to have once had an ocean, flowing water, and a much more substantial atmosphere than it does at present. An ocean and relatively dense atmosphere would tend to moderate day/night extremes of temperature.

Not even "that" ancient. Recent work has shown that liquids still occasionally flow on the surface, during brief warmer summer spells. The planet is not as hostile as once thought - heck we have lichens and bacteria on earth right now that could survive on mars if they were planted.


#51    scowl

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:07 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 20 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

No it shows microbes potentially have alot more space to thrive underground on Mars than they do on Earth.

Assuming that there is liquid water, sure. Is there? Probably not.

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And you really claim to have so much knowledge about geology?

Well golly gee, professor only took a year of it in college.

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Well if you really did... you would know that there is no way Mars is ice cold to the core as you claimed. Its thought that because of radioactive decay that the Mantel of Mars is around 1,500 deg. F. This is why such a large percentage of the thick Martian crust falls into a tempurature range that could support life.

Since Mars has only 10% of the mass of Earth and absolutely no magnetic field, all evidence we have now suggests that the core of Mars is cold. It may be warm but we have no evidence that suggests that.

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As for food? What do you suppose these deep underground microbes on Earth are "eating"? You do know there is no sunlight right?

I'll tell you since obviously you don't know. They eat the decayed matter of life that lived on the surface. This matter gets mixed in with the water which Earth has lots of.

There was a fun theory a few years ago that some survive on radiation emitted from the Earth's core but radiation levels where they were found at were very low and they were unable to keep them alive in the lab with this "food". I haven't heard a peep about this marvelous discovery in years so I assumed they determined the radiation theory was wrong.


#52    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:15 AM

I keep hearing that absence of a magnetic field rules out a planet for life, but the earth has been without a magnetic field many times in geologic history for periods stretching to tens of thousands of years when the poles flipped, and no disturbance of life during those periods has been detected.

If a magnetic field is not absolutely needed, then Venus' slow rotation and Mars' lack of an iron core would not hinder terraformation.


#53    bison

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:09 AM

Two articles re: Mars' iron core--  
http://www.jpl.nasa....ses/2003/32.cfm
http://en.wikipedia....ernal_structure


#54    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:15 AM

OK, then why no magnetic field?  I'm not doubting -- just puzzled.


#55    bison

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:45 AM

linked article on Mars ancient internal dynamo, which once generated a magnetic field--
http://redplanet.asu.edu/?p=2035
Mars, being smaller than Earth, presumably cooled sooner, impairing the circulation of the metallic core, and so also, the production of a planet wide magnetic field.

Edited by bison, 21 September 2013 - 01:52 AM.


#56    mcrom901

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:00 AM

View Postscowl, on 19 September 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yeah, the second paper made a big splash years ago but has been rejected.

can you please share the relevant details?

View Postscowl, on 19 September 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

If you add up the "if"s you end up with an extremely low probability of being true yet the author uses the false assumptions to actually calculate how much life in on Mars right now.

it was about the possibility, no definitive claims were made there, read it again... don't create a straw-man.... moreover, i shared that paper so you could see the reference re methanogens which do exist in 'freezing' conditions

View Postscowl, on 19 September 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Sometimes there are negatives and we just have to deal with them.

http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance


#57    DONTEATUS

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 08:16 PM

Drake never met The Duck ,just DONTEATUS ! He would of known for a fact that Mars has a thriving Life underground ! ANd the Secone Best B.B.Q in out Solar system ! :alien: :clap:

This is a Work in Progress!

#58    scowl

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 21 September 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

can you please share the relevant details?

I don't have any. The paper was published around 2000 I think and immediately resulted in interviews and articles in the popular science magazines and web sites. People were expecting a peer-reviewed study on the discovery in a scientific journal but I never saw one. That is usually a silent admission that previous claims were a bit exaggerated or incorrect. I think they managed to get some funding for further study but I haven't been able to find anything from that either.

It's odd because whatever they found sounded very interesting. Perhaps it wasn't as interesting as they had thought.

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it was about the possibility, no definitive claims were made there, read it again... don't create a straw-man.... moreover, i shared that paper so you could see the reference re methanogens which do exist in 'freezing' conditions

Yes, they exist. Do they thrive in these conditions? No. Do they do thrive in warmer conditions? Yes. Archaea are tough simple creatures that are hard to kill but need specific conditions to thrive.

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Irrelevant. I have not once claimed anything is true or false. I have only been discussing possibilities. Unfortunately when you say "extremely low possibility" fools often equate that as saying something is "impossible". Unlikely and impossible are two very different things. I wish people could get this straight.


#59    mcrom901

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

View Postscowl, on 21 September 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

I don't have any. The paper was published around 2000 I think and immediately resulted in interviews and articles in the popular science magazines and web sites. People were expecting a peer-reviewed study on the discovery in a scientific journal but I never saw one. That is usually a silent admission that previous claims were a bit exaggerated or incorrect. I think they managed to get some funding for further study but I haven't been able to find anything from that either.

check the date... http://www.pnas.org/...nt/102/51/18292

View Postscowl, on 21 September 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Yes, they exist. Do they thrive in these conditions? No. Do they do thrive in warmer conditions? Yes. Archaea are tough simple creatures that are hard to kill but need specific conditions to thrive.

again you're moving goalposts here... existence, the premise re possibility, is what's being discussed...

you simply came up with improbabilities... to which i simply responded with whether the rover was able to investigate the martian soil for methanogens i.e. we shouldn't conclude anything re what has not yet been investigated

View Postscowl, on 21 September 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Irrelevant. I have not once claimed anything is true or false. I have only been discussing possibilities. Unfortunately when you say "extremely low possibility" fools often equate that as saying something is "impossible". Unlikely and impossible are two very different things. I wish people could get this straight.

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#60    scowl

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:30 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 23 September 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:


Does the date make a difference?

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again you're moving goalposts here... existence, the premise re possibility, is what's being discussed...

My goalposts haven't moved. If there is any possibility that there is life miles and miles under the surface of Mars then you are convinced it probably exists since similar life evolved to live in similar conditions on Earth. I remain skeptical that this happened on Mars.

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you simply came up with improbabilities... to which i simply responded with whether the rover was able to investigate the martian soil for methanogens i.e. we shouldn't conclude anything re what has not yet been investigated

I agree. I have not made any conclusions whatsoever. I'm simply stating that the probabilities are still extremely low while most people would rather hear about how life on Mars is very likely. If there isn't life in the first mile below the surface then surely it exists a mile deeper, and if not a mile deeper than that. That's moving goalposts.





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