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Forced religion

forced religion

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#31    Mr Walker

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostBling, on 16 November 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think it was wrong to tell me it was correct and without question. They didn't give me a balanced opinion. Moral values and religious beliefs are not the same thing, atheists are moral too.

I assume your parents honestly believed it was right and unquestioned. How could they then present a balance without questioning their own beliefs, and why should they?

Is it correct to teach two sides to theft or murder? We believe theft and murder are wrong and so we dont teach both sides and yet there are two sides as many cultures  operated on differnt values in the past.

My parents believed extra marital sex was wrong (not from religious reasons but from logic and common sense) so they taught me that value. Why teach me an alternative one which they had found to be harmful and destructive compared with a faithful lifelong relationship. Were they right or wrong? It has worked exceptionally well for me. My wife and i have been faithful to each other for over 40 years, and as a result have a very strong and loving relationship. I see the great harm and angst caused by extra marital sex, yet some people see no wrong or harm in it. They have different values and attitudes and perhaps dont value loyalty duty etc as much as danger and excitement. ( I t is more complex than this of course but tha tis my point, we can only teach that which is right and work s for us)
In most people belief and morality, values and ethics, are indivisible. We hold values via beliefs. In some people those beliefs are religious In others they are cultutral or personal.  Your parents probably had to teach you religion to pass on their values because, for them, their values, ethics and moralities, were tied to their religious/spiritual beliefs..

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#32    Bling

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 16 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

However, you were not brainwashed.  You need to look up what that means.

Also your conclusions, thought out I am sure, is an opinion, not some kind of truth.  


Erm....I was brainwashed by a christian cult - you don't know enough about my experiences to say that....I know what brainwashing is, I do not need to look it up!

And my conclusions are an opinion, I never said they were facts. I'll leave the fact stating to the zealous religious people who claim to know it all.


#33    Bling

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 16 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

I assume your parents honestly believed it was right and unquestioned. How could they then present a balance without questioning their own beliefs, and why should they?

Is it correct to teach two sides to theft or murder? We believe theft and murder are wrong and so we dont teach both sides and yet there are two sides as many cultures  operated on differnt values in the past.

My parents believed extra marital sex was wrong (not from religious reasons but from logic and common sense) so they taught me that value. Why teach me an alternative one which they had found to be harmful and destructive compared with a faithful lifelong relationship. Were they right or wrong? It has worked exceptionally well for me. My wife and i have been faithful to each other for over 40 years, and as a result have a very strong and loving relationship. I see the great harm and angst caused by extra marital sex, yet some people see no wrong or harm in it. They have different values and attitudes and perhaps dont value loyalty duty etc as much as danger and excitement. ( I t is more complex than this of course but tha tis my point, we can only teach that which is right and work s for us)
In most people belief and morality, values and ethics, are indivisible. We hold values via beliefs. In some people those beliefs are religious In others they are cultutral or personal.  Your parents probably had to teach you religion to pass on their values because, for them, their values, ethics and moralities, were tied to their religious/spiritual beliefs..

I've got to say My Walker, you have some very 'out there' opinions, and from what I've read of your posts, I disagree with most of them. So we'll agree to disagree as I don't want to debate with you as others do.


#34    GreenmansGod

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

View Postand then, on 16 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Darkwind I pay attention to your statements because in general I either agree with them or at least understand and respect your logic.  But this statement is just wrong imo.  INDIVIDUAL persons of fanatical observance of these faiths may be equal but as groups there is absolutely no comparison in degree or kind.  Islamists have been responsible for nearly every conflict on the planet for the last couple of decades.  Being PC about this situation is no longer acceptable.  At least not for people who want to remain free of religious oppression unlike anything the West has ever seen.

You opened yourself wide open with that statement. The Muslims are just the latest in a long line of atrocities inflicted by the followers of the god of Abraham. The only reason for the Palestinian, Israeli conflict is based on the Zionist idea the Jews have a right to the land because the Torah/Bible says they do.  There are fundamentalist Christians who burn their own children because they think they are witches in Africa.  Just rampant nuttiness.

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#35    Mr Walker

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

View PostBling, on 16 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

I've got to say My Walker, you have some very 'out there' opinions, and from what I've read of your posts, I disagree with most of them. So we'll agree to disagree as I don't want to debate with you as others do.
I was thinking much the same. I dont mean to offend you  or more particularly upset you. As you pointed out to another poster, no one knows the forces which shaped us and our current thinking. I was not intending to debate you as such, just repsonding with my views to your own ,and presenting an alternative viewpoint, which comes fom a very differnt life experience to your own. I was raised an atheist in the fifties and sixties, with strong secular humanist, old fashioned, traditonal moralities and ethics.

They have worked very well for me and fo the society community i live in. Others may well disagree with them, and I know from experience  personal and professional, that  many young people have values which i know will lead them into a lot of pain and grief, but it is their lives and they will have to learn from their own experiences. I can only teach those I am responsible for a happier, safer, and more productive way of living; and protect them as best i can, until they are adults and their brains are fully formed and working at full function..

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#36    freetoroam

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

View Postpallidin, on 16 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Of course I hate radical muslims, and I"M DAMN PROUD TO SAY THAT.

They are nothing more than dangerous fruitcakes with guns.

Good God, they want to(and have) destroy historical monuments just because it offends their faith.
Yeah, I hate them. With a passion.
If I am threatened then I will hate those threatening me, it just so happens today it is the fanatical islamists.....I also hate our British government for allowing those who openly voice their hatred towards the west to flourish here.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#37    Orcseeker

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

View Postpallidin, on 16 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Of course I hate radical muslims, and I"M DAMN PROUD TO SAY THAT.

They are nothing more than dangerous fruitcakes with guns.

Good God, they want to(and have) destroy historical monuments just because it offends their faith.
Yeah, I hate them. With a passion.

Same goes for all radicals.

As for making kids follow your religion. That is a form of child abuse. Taking an impressionable child and making them believe the religion you do simply because it is your choice is wrong.

My parents didn't force anything onto me. Only the primary/elementary school I went to shoved that down our throats. Was a waste of time, others and I simply scribbled stupid drawings into the little magazine books they gave us for the subject. We had to take part in the Christmas ceremony things as well, like watch or do a play on baby Jesus. The whole thing kinda scared me/was depressing.

I had considered the possibility of Christianity, even went to some church groups with a friend. Ultimately it comes down to the only reason I've heard of it, is because someone else told me about it. So going on that information alone, I will never believe it. As I cannot.

Imagine how prevalent religions would be today if people didn't force their children into it.


#38    freetoroam

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostOrcseeker, on 16 November 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Same goes for all radicals.

What are the other RELIGIOUS fanatical groups which are threatening others who are NOT a threat to them?  What other fanatical group is openly threatening death to those they think have offended their faith?

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#39    pallidin

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 16 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

What are the other RELIGIOUS fanatical groups which are threatening others who are NOT a threat to them?  What other fanatical group is openly threatening death to those they think have offended their faith?

Exactly. Well said.


#40    TheBanana

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:01 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 16 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Thats an interesting take on modern parenting and one with many ramifications. Where does a parent's right to impose discipline or the parents beliefs (in anything) begin and end? Currently we are caring for a 15 year old who left home because her parents were "too controling" Turns out they wanted her to clean her room, not go out late at night, help with looking after younger children etc.

We are lined up to care for another who throws rocks at the house, destroys things in in it  Screams abuse for hours on end, and is beginning to harm  herself and others because she rejects her parents right to "control her"  The doctor they took her to, after the police were called in, told them jus tto let her have her way in everything.The police say her parents can only physically restrain her if she is harming herself or another. If she choses to walk into town at midnight and walk the streets they cant physiclaly stop her She is 13 Her options now are to live with us or be put into government care. Her behaviour is destroying the parents relationship and altering the behaviour of younger children to become violent and disruptive as well..

Where a child or teenager is in conflict with a parents basic beliefs values and moralities the parent's (as the  responsible adults who run the household) wishes must prevail. The only other option is indeed for a child to leave home, voluntarilly or otherwise, to live as they wish to live. The problem is that modern western  teenagers have rights, and an inflated sense of those rights, and no responsibilities or legal obligations.

id say the line is actual real life consequences for not behaving in the way the parents taught.

teenagers should listen to what their parents say about things like not hurting other people, not taking drugs, not stealing...because they have real world consequences (like that hitting people hurts them, drugs are bad for your health...) and dont want their child to end up in jail.

what harm is a kid doing by not wanting to go to church or deciding to follow a different religion to their parents? its not like other religions and atheists are evil with no morals. morality isnt a religious thing, even atheists who were raised by atheist parents have a clear set of morals and most of them wouldnt do things like go around beating people up and sleeping with anything that moves.

the kid you described, who was kicked out of her house was because she was dangerous-harming others and destroying the house and making her siblings violent. being a different religion from your family doesnt have any effects like that-it doesnt hurt others, it doesnt destroy the house, and it wont affect her siblings negatively. it may give them another viewpoint and some may decide to explore other religious options too, but this is a good thing (seriously, any parent who shelters their children from other religious views of their own must be very insecure of their beliefs). the parents reaction to the atheist kid also influences the other kids-if they accept their kids regardless of religion it teaches them a valuble lesson in respecting other peoples beliefs, but if they go crazy and kick out the atheist kid, it will just teach the children that its ok to hate people of different religions, and also teach them that children are only important when they are mini clones of their parents, and if they have any different opinion they could be gone and forgotten.

most kids go through a rebellious stage or threaten to run away from home over little rules, its natural, they dont understand why their parents dont let them stay up late, make them eat vegetables and clean their room, but sometimes its ok to let your kid have a bit of individuality. some things are completely fine (like the kid making their own religious choices) and are just them trying to find their own identity seperate from their parents, and wont really affect the family, unless the parents actually ARE controlling.

i see it differently. i dont have kids yet, but i think i would like to one day, but i would feel like i failed as a parent if all of my children followed my political and religious beliefs and shared all my opinions on things (depending on how many i choose to have, if i had loads i would naturally expect some differences), because that would mean i havent taught my kids to think, ive taught them to parrot back my beliefs.

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#41    Orcseeker

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:15 AM

View Postfreetoroam, on 16 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:


What are the other RELIGIOUS fanatical groups which are threatening others who are NOT a threat to them?  What other fanatical group is openly threatening death to those they think have offended their faith?

Christian groups in Uganda. The anti-homosexuality bill and the advocation to rid the country of homosexuals has resulted in hate driven crimes resulting in death.

Christianity was apparently intended to be a non-violent religion. But as soon as the Roman Empire adopted it, anyone who didn't follow the rules were outlawed. Since then we have had the crusades, the inquisition etc. Is this not a form of radicalism?

You say Christianity doesnt do it as much now? Maybe other religions are going though the phase Christianity did a bit later, just in smaller groups of radicals of course.


#42    Purplos

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

Like a few have pointed out, it's all a matter of degree.

Some people seem to believe that all Christians "brainwash" and "force" religion onto their children in some violent and extreme fashion. There are probably 100000 families who just go to church, read bible stories sometimes and try to avoid lying, stealing and violence for every 1 fanatical "jesus camp" christian who actually would kick their child our or beat them or whatever if they said "but maybe god's not real."

There is nothing wrong with a parent bringing their child to church, or even 'forcing' them to go to church because it is a family outing that everyone must attend.  There is a bunch wrong with the types of things mentioned above: violence, hatred, exclusion from the family unit.

Except in the cases of cult-like actual brainwashing, teaching a child that a religion is true is something they'll work out for themselves as they grow up, just like every other thing parents teach their kids.

Edited by Purplos, 17 November 2012 - 12:36 AM.

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#43    CelestialStar

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostPurplos, on 17 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Like a few have pointed out, it's all a matter of degree.

Some people seem to believe that all Christians "brainwash" and "force" religion onto their children in some violent and extreme fashion. There are probably 100000 families who just go to church, read bible stories sometimes and try to avoid lying, stealing and violence for every 1 fanatical "jesus camp" christian who actually would kick their child our or beat them or whatever if they said "but maybe god's not real."

There is nothing wrong with a parent bringing their child to church, or even 'forcing' them to go to church because it is a family outing that everyone must attend.  There is a bunch wrong with the types of things mentioned above: violence, hatred, exclusion from the family unit.

Except in the cases of cult-like actual brainwashing, teaching a child that a religion is true is something they'll work out for themselves as they grow up, just like every other thing parents teach their kids.

okay i see what i said wrong, i accidentally implied that i thought ALL people of a religion did it, when what i meant to say were the extremists as you described,
and also, i meant the children who were old enough to stay home being forced to go, it was my bad communication, im sorry.

Edited by CelestialStar, 17 November 2012 - 01:03 AM.

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#44    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:16 AM

So much for spare the rod and spoil the child, right...

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#45    pallidin

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:32 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 17 November 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

So much for spare the rod and spoil the child, right...

Yeah, they just indoctrinate their children and give them guns and RPG's.
And perhaps an occassional suicide vest.






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