Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* - - - - 3 votes

Traits of Socialism


  • Please log in to reply
151 replies to this topic

#91    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostGromdor, on 04 January 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Well, one trait of Socialism is that is an ECONOMIC idea.  Gun Control is neither socialistic nor capitalistic. Naming babies also has nothing to do with socialism.  Star Trek is indeed a socialist utopia with maybe the exception of the Ferengi.  However, I personally think due to human nature, our future socialist utopia will be more like WALL-E.

We need to define the political spectrum as some seem confused about it.

An extreme left-wing government is a dictatorship or autocratic regime. One where a single person makes all the laws, decides whats good for everyone else and controls every aspect of citizens lives. Stalin and Hilter has extreme left-wing governments. There is little freedom under such regimes which people resent.

An extreme right-wing government is a true democracy. One where the entire population rules and laws are at their minimum. Ancient Athens had an extreme right-wing government. The danger here is the population might get together, vote and go lynch someone without following the rule of law.

Socialism is left-wing. Its about a small group of people (or less) dictating how the population should live their lives using laws and regulations. It is a nanny state. Due to the ideology within socialism they try to make everyone equals using laws, regulations and taxes. Hence freedom is taken away, the economy gets burdened with red tape and the state underachieves.

Conservatism is right-wing. Conservatives want the maximum practical freedom for the population by having the minimum laws and regulations. Its about the state not interferring in peoples lives unless it has too. Due to the ideology within Conservatism people are rewarded for individual ability and excellance through an economic system which allocates the most wealth to them. Hence the people are no longer held back because they can live up to their full potential. The downside (for the bottom at least) is the state stops carrying them.


#92    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,654 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

Hitler was not a socialist in anything other than name. He was an elitist who favored corporations over democratically elected representatives. Fascism has always been accepted as the logical end point of right wing thinking (which is different to libertarian ism).

Mr Right Wing - your attempts to attribute everything bad in the world to the left and everything good to the right, will not hold much water with anyone who has a cursory understanding of history.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#93    Mekorig

Mekorig

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,577 posts
  • Joined:08 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Argentina

  • A Lithium flower about to bloom

Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:20 PM

Mr Right Wing, Br Cornelius is right, facism is corporativist, one aspect of the right wing. Heck, almost all of the description you made about the left wing can be asigned to the actions of our right wing goverments.

Im an evil pinko UN slave liberal commie

I don't think any of these "The Vague Society of Nebulous Meanies are going to take over the world and light up a planet" theories worry too much about practical considerations like that. It's all about rousing ill-informed, paranoiac fear, not making sense.

--Jaylemurph


Posted Image

#94    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 05 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Hitler was not a socialist in anything other than name. He was an elitist who favored corporations over democratically elected representatives. Fascism has always been accepted as the logical end point of right wing thinking (which is different to libertarian ism).

Mr Right Wing - your attempts to attribute everything bad in the world to the left and everything good to the right, will not hold much water with anyone who has a cursory understanding of history.

Br Cornelius

He introduced state healthcare, drastically increased the number of state employees, formed a totalitarian state which regulated vast areas of peoples lives, had a secret police to get rid of those who objected, governed as a dictator, nationalised many industries and introduced a variety of social policies such as Hitler Youth. His Government was extreme left-wing and nationalistic hence the phrase national socialism.

Your political misconceptions dont hold water with anyone who actually knows anything about politics. Hitler and Stalin were very similar with the only real difference being that they didnt like each other.


#95    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostMekorig, on 05 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Mr Right Wing, Br Cornelius is right, facism is corporativist, one aspect of the right wing. Heck, almost all of the description you made about the left wing can be asigned to the actions of our right wing goverments.

Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism - 'A form of radical authoritarian nationalism' and further on 'fascism advocates a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy'

As I was saying theres people on here (including you) that have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to politics. What right-wing governments do you know of that introduced a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy while practising authoritarian nationalism? There isnt one example in the whole of history because fascism is at odds with right-wing politics.

You have left-wing examples such as the nazis. Goodness knows why you think capitalism is fascism. You live in a highly distorted world and I suspect have been indocturned to see the political right as nazis when they were left-wingers. Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 05 January 2013 - 02:58 PM.


#96    Tutankhaten-pasheri

Tutankhaten-pasheri

    Buratinologist

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined:22 Sep 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:страна дураков

Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Can you then explain the links between Hitler and the Aufbau organisation.


#97    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,623 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism - 'A form of radical authoritarian nationalism' and further on 'fascism advocates a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy'

As I was saying theres people on here (including you) that have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to politics. What right-wing governments do you know of that introduced a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy while practising authoritarian nationalism? There isnt one example in the whole of history because fascism is at odds with right-wing politics.

You have left-wing examples such as the nazis. Goodness knows why you think capitalism is fascism. You live in a highly distorted world and I suspect have been indocturned to see the political right as nazis when they were left-wingers. Go check German history because the Nazis Party was their version of the Labour Party.

Right, and because the Nazis were the Labor party there was no need for the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party... but wait... they all existed... and the National Socialist Party was not first called the National Party, then the National Worker's Party and finally the National Socialist Workers Party taking each time a percent or two from the legitimate parties nor was it the Right Wing parties like the German Democratic Party, the German Centrist Party, the Bavarian Popular Party and the German Popular Party who finally put Hitler with his 13% in power.

Shesh, sometime prejudices are stronger than history in some people's head.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#98    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Right, and because the Nazis were the Labor party there was no need for the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party... but wait... they all existed... and the National Socialist Party was not first called the National Party, then the National Worker's Party and finally the National Socialist Workers Party taking each time a percent or two from the legitimate parties nor was it the Right Wing parties like the German Democratic Party, the German Centrist Party, the Bavarian Popular Party and the German Popular Party who finally put Hitler with his 13% in power.

Shesh, sometime prejudices are stronger than history in some people's head.

The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 05 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.


#99    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 05 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Can you then explain the links between Hitler and the Aufbau organisation.

I've never heard of it and the only references I can find are in German so I cant reply to you I'm afraid.


#100    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,623 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

The Nazis eliminated parties further to the left because they were involved in the terrorist attack on the Reichstag. They also had a night of long knives to eliminate their own party members who were also too far to the left. They did not progress from a national party to a national socialist workers party as you're implying.

Finally what on earth does your reply have to do with what I posted?

It has something to do because you claimed they were on the left, they were not, they might have been further to the left than where you are, but from day one the Nazis were on the right, promoting all that comes along with the right and therefore in the end supported by the German parties of the right and not on the left.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#101    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:47 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

It has something to do because you claimed they were on the left, they were not, they might have been further to the left than where you are, but from day one the Nazis were on the right, promoting all that comes along with the right and therefore in the end supported by the German parties of the right and not on the left.

Their policies clearly show they were left-wing -
1. Introduction of State Healthcare - Left-wing socialist project
2. Indocturnation in the school system - Left-wing regulation of peoples thoughts.
3. Expansion of the state sector - Left-wing move to increase number of state employees.
4. Hitler Youth - Left-wing regulation of peoples thoughts.
5. Mandatory parenting classes - Left-wing regulation of society.
6. Secret Police - Regulation of society with the elimination of those that oppose it.
7. Nationalisation of businesses - Left-wing move to control the economy.

Those are their major socialist polices and you'll struggle to find one right-wing government that has dont any of the above. As has been pointed out to you further up fascism is not right-wing. It introduces lots of socialist policies to prepare a state for imperial expansion. They nationalise all areas of business needed for a war effort, indocturnate their population and eliminate those who disagree with whats happening. You'll find similar manovres happened in the USSR but they were even further to the left. They were even nationalising things like farms etc. You'll also notice the Russians carved out a vast empire too and if you studied Stalin closely enough at school you'll know he delivered speeches to his own people where he told them that they were in fact the master race.


#102    Tutankhaten-pasheri

Tutankhaten-pasheri

    Buratinologist

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined:22 Sep 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:страна дураков

Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I've never heard of it and the only references I can find are in German so I cant reply to you I'm afraid.
Try this link. It is only a summary of the book by Kellogg. Aufbau was essentially an organisation of White Russians and financially suported Hitler in the hope of him destroying Bolsheviks and others. They were certainly not socialists
http://www.ils.unc.e...ow_tree&id=7004


#103    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 05 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Try this link. It is only a summary of the book by Kellogg. Aufbau was essentially an organisation of White Russians and financially suported Hitler in the hope of him destroying Bolsheviks and others. They were certainly not socialists
http://www.ils.unc.e...ow_tree&id=7004

So they cant of been socialists because they were funding an anti-bolshervik organisation in Russia. Thats a logical argument isnt it. We are supporting rebels in Syria so does that mean our policies here must support Islamic fundamentalism?

What on earth do the organisations we approach in other countries have to do with our choice of policies at home?

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 05 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#104    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,623 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 January 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Their policies clearly show they were left-wing -
1. Introduction of State Healthcare - Left-wing socialist project
2. Indocturnation in the school system - Left-wing regulation of peoples thoughts.
3. Expansion of the state sector - Left-wing move to increase number of state employees.
4. Hitler Youth - Left-wing regulation of peoples thoughts.
5. Mandatory parenting classes - Left-wing regulation of society.
6. Secret Police - Regulation of society with the elimination of those that oppose it.
7. Nationalisation of businesses - Left-wing move to control the economy.

Those are their major socialist polices and you'll struggle to find one right-wing government that has dont any of the above. As has been pointed out to you further up fascism is not right-wing. It introduces lots of socialist policies to prepare a state for imperial expansion. They nationalise all areas of business needed for a war effort, indocturnate their population and eliminate those who disagree with whats happening. You'll find similar manovres happened in the USSR but they were even further to the left. They were even nationalising things like farms etc. You'll also notice the Russians carved out a vast empire too and if you studied Stalin closely enough at school you'll know he delivered speeches to his own people where he told them that they were in fact the master race.

Those things were already in place, and it might be shocking to you they were enacted by a certain "socialist"called Otto von Bismark at the insistence of "socialists"such as Siemens, Krupp and Thyssen. And their idea was not to help poor little underpaid workers, their idea was to rub off the expense of hiring and firing,illness and old age on the general populace instead of having them at their door (as they were at the time because of the feudal structures of most of Germany). And not even Adolph would have gotten away with curtailing those entitlements (though he changed some, like you did not get unemployment anymore but went straight to some work brigade).

Please try to learn some history before preaching around here.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#105    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:19 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Those things were already in place.

No they werent they were Hitlers policies.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users