Modern Medicine and Morality

[RamboIII]

A recent, and, in retrospect, obvious, bit of information that I came across in Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion, gave me quite a fright. Vaccines, contrary to popular belief, will cause the inevitable extinction of the human species. Every time we get a vaccine, the targeted bacteria will have a cell that is mutated, thus making it immune to the vaccine. This mini form of natural selection will just continue to create more and more devastating diseases until we are unable to cure one in time, and to make a long story short, we will all die... This brings up the interesting debate over whether we should heal those who are ill now to perish later on (thousands of years), or should we let those who are ill die as nature intended and naturally become immune to the disease... There are many more reasons why vaccines are dangerous and can be seen in this article:

LINK

Please post your thoughts/personal experiences/arguments and if you are super cool post a solution

[RamboIII]

Or point out another similar topic if there already is one

[glorybebe]

A recent, and, in retrospect, obvious, bit of information that I came across in Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion, gave me quite a fright. Vaccines, contrary to popular belief, will cause the inevitable extinction of the human species. Every time we get a vaccine, the targeted bacteria will have a cell that is mutated, thus making it immune to the vaccine. This mini form of natural selection will just continue to create more and more devastating diseases until we are unable to cure one in time, and to make a long story short, we will all die... This brings up the interesting debate over whether we should heal those who are ill now to perish later on (thousands of years), or should we let those who are ill die as nature intended and naturally become immune to the disease... There are many more reasons why vaccines are dangerous and can be seen in this article:

LINK

Please post your thoughts/personal experiences/arguments and if you are super cool post a solution

What the problem is that viruses mutate. So, what may work last year for a flu shot won't next year. So, we have to not only stay on top of the mutations, but we have to have stronger and stronger medicine to combat the ailment. Check out this link, it is an article I posted about a new strain of superbug.

[+DieChecker]

There are cases of vaccines wiping out disease. Look at Smallpox. True, the virus will only be wiped out if everyone gets the vaccine and only if the virus does not mutate quickly, such as was already pointed out with the flu. But, it does have a place in medicine.

Plus, it is one of the only preventative measures that most insurance will pay for. Most other forms of preventative health are completely at the user’s financial expense.

I'd be more worried about the rising occurrence of diseases that are resistant to antibiotics. Some are immune to almost all know antibiotics. Antibiotic resistant tuberculosis has been in the news lately.

Did you know having tuberculosis in an infective state and walking around and doing your daily business is not a crime of any kind in the US? You can be coughing TB on people and there is nothing they can do to stop you. As long as you are not attempting to infect them...

[Neognosis]

mini form of natural selection will just continue to create more and more devastating diseases until we are unable to cure one in time, and to make a long story short, we will all die

First, vaccines for the flu should not bet taken unless you are immuno compromised. what the hell is wrong with people that they need a vaccine from what is at worst a three day layup? Come on... save that stuff for the elderly and infirm who might DIE from the flu.

Second, it's antibiotics that, as pointed out, are more of a concern as I see it.

And lastly, though the organisms that make us sick mutate and become resistant to treatment, there is a good chance that there will be new knowledge and techniques, or that surviving humans will mutate and have their own resistance to certain diseases anyway, so to predict the complete end of humanity is a bit of a leap, i think. Besides, we could use a correction anyway at some point.

[RamboIII]

What the problem is that viruses mutate. So, what may work last year for a flu shot won't next year. So, we have to not only stay on top of the mutations, but we have to have stronger and stronger medicine to combat the ailment. Check out this link, it is an article I posted about a new strain of superbug.

Excellent point, my dilemma is (in nonethical terms) would it be better to let the sick die off or spend billions keeping up with mutating viruses (not to mention the other negative aspects of vaccinations as well)?

[RamboIII]

First, vaccines for the flu should not bet taken unless you are immuno compromised. what the hell is wrong with people that they need a vaccine from what is at worst a three day layup? Come on... save that stuff for the elderly and infirm who might DIE from the flu.

Second, it's antibiotics that, as pointed out, are more of a concern as I see it.

And lastly, though the organisms that make us sick mutate and become resistant to treatment, there is a good chance that there will be new knowledge and techniques, or that surviving humans will mutate and have their own resistance to certain diseases anyway, so to predict the complete end of humanity is a bit of a leap, i think. Besides, we could use a correction anyway at some point.

Indeed it seems a leap, but keep in mind it is not my idea that mutating vaccines will end all humanity (although I see logic in this). There is a good chance that we will develop a cure for all diseases, but there is just as good a chance that a disease will develop that either spreads too quickly, mutates too quickly, or is uncurable.

[Sagredo]

Excellent point, my dilemma is (in nonethical terms) would it be better to let the sick die off or spend billions keeping up with mutating viruses (not to mention the other negative aspects of vaccinations as well)?

Rambo, refusing to vaccinate against against viruses and bacteria will not, in and of itself, stop them from mutating into more virulent forms. Remember the Spanish influenza pandemic. Remember the Black Death. And properly administered vaccination campaigns can actually eradicate diseases. An earlier poster has already mentioned smallpox. Polio, diptheria, and tetanus have also mostly disappeared from the developed world. On balance, I think it is a wiser course to deal aggressively with infectious disease where and when we can. Mutations will, of course, occur in the pathogenic organisms but this will not always result in strains of greater virulence. (We've been vaccinating against influenza for many decades now and we have yet to see another Spanish Flu.) When mutations do occur, we will just have to deal with them as we've been doing for a long time now. Far better than "letting the sick die off." I'm sure the sick would agree.

Regards, Sagredo

[Torgo]

An evolving virus or bacteria is not necessarily a bad thing. There's been some success in Africa with putting those with horrible life threatening malaria in tight quarentine and leaving those with very mild cases be bit by wild mosquitos - over time the less severe strains become more common until malaria is less and less of a threat.

Mutating in such a way that a vaccine no longer works has little to no bearing on the severity of the disease - its simply the changing of a surface protein coat so our immune system no longer recognizes it. Antibiotic resistance is more serious, because it limits our treatment options.

[crystal sage]

this is scary.... think of the ease of cross pollination...and if they get it wrong?????

Anyone heard of this before????

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA01/vaccines.html

http://www.geocities.com/plantvaccines/transgenicplants.htm

TRANSGENIC PLANTS AS EDIBLE VACCINES

VACCINES IN VEGETABLE FORM

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20..._vegetables.htm

HOUSTON - Genetically engineered fruits and vegetables that provide immunity could soon become a reality according to several recent studies.

Scientists now report that laboratory animals fed genetically engineered potatoes produced antibodies against hepatitis B, an infectious bacterium responsible for diarrheal disease. This is the first time that an oral vaccination has been achieved by feeding a genetically modified plant.

The researchers first transferred a gene that makes an antigen against hepatitis B (rHBsAg) from yeast to tobacco and then to potatoes. The immune response elicited by the transferred protein was similar to that obtained by immunizing mice with commercial vaccines for hepatitis B. Both the B- and T-cell epitopes of HBsAg were preserved when the antigen was expressed in the transgenic plant.

Arntzen emphasizes that potatoes themselves are a good system in which to test the idea of edible vaccines, but probably would not be a practical to administer them to children. Other members of Arntzen's research group are attempting to introduce the E. coli genetic material into other food plants, especially bananas.

[Atheist God]

A recent, and, in retrospect, obvious, bit of information that I came across in Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion, gave me quite a fright. Vaccines, contrary to popular belief, will cause the inevitable extinction of the human species. Every time we get a vaccine, the targeted bacteria will have a cell that is mutated, thus making it immune to the vaccine. This mini form of natural selection will just continue to create more and more devastating diseases until we are unable to cure one in time, and to make a long story short, we will all die... This brings up the interesting debate over whether we should heal those who are ill now to perish later on (thousands of years), or should we let those who are ill die as nature intended and naturally become immune to the disease... There are many more reasons why vaccines are dangerous and can be seen in this article:

LINK

Please post your thoughts/personal experiences/arguments and if you are super cool post a solution

I am severely allergic to vaccines and many medications.... I also rarely get sick, I am now going on 15 years w/o getting the flu.

While diseases may in fact be winning the arms race all is not lost, one thing to note here is that no disease ever has a 100% kill rate.

There are actually several solutions in the works for example genetic engineering and nano technology will rid humanity of all ailments. Both of these serve as solutions and we are seeing major advancements in both fields...

If a virus is going to wipe most people out it will be man made... It would take much either to make a mutant version of the Ebola virus that would allow for people to carry and spread it longer before it kills the host. Since it is air born if the Ebola virus or a mutated (engineered) strain were to be released in a major city a vast majority would die from the virus.

If I was a world leader and such a virus showed up in on of my nations cities I would quarantine and drop a thermal nuclear device on it to ensure the spread is stopped.

[glorybebe]

First, vaccines for the flu should not bet taken unless you are immuno compromised. what the hell is wrong with people that they need a vaccine from what is at worst a three day layup? Come on... save that stuff for the elderly and infirm who might DIE from the flu.

Second, it's antibiotics that, as pointed out, are more of a concern as I see it.

And lastly, though the organisms that make us sick mutate and become resistant to treatment, there is a good chance that there will be new knowledge and techniques, or that surviving humans will mutate and have their own resistance to certain diseases anyway, so to predict the complete end of humanity is a bit of a leap, i think. Besides, we could use a correction anyway at some point.

My sister is an RCA (resident care attendant) she HAS to get the flu shot every year, or she is ineligible for sick days...nice. Especially since she has gotten more sick after getting the flu shot. There have been a few of her co-workers who said the same thing that they were sicker after getting the shot, but they still have to get them for their job. It makes no sense to me, especially since there have been so many cases of bad vaccines.

[glorybebe]

I am severely allergic to vaccines and many medications.... I also rarely get sick, I am now going on 15 years w/o getting the flu.

While diseases may in fact be winning the arms race all is not lost, one thing to note here is that no disease ever has a 100% kill rate.

There are actually several solutions in the works for example genetic engineering and nano technology will rid humanity of all ailments. Both of these serve as solutions and we are seeing major advancements in both fields...

If a virus is going to wipe most people out it will be man made... It would take much either to make a mutant version of the Ebola virus that would allow for people to carry and spread it longer before it kills the host. Since it is air born if the Ebola virus or a mutated (engineered) strain were to be released in a major city a vast majority would die from the virus.

If I was a world leader and such a virus showed up in on of my nations cities I would quarantine and drop a thermal nuclear device on it to ensure the spread is stopped.

That is the major issue right there. Why are we not quarantining people anymore? It is against their rights? They are being punished for being sick? Well, if we really want to stop some of these sicknesses, yes we need to quarantine the patients. Look at the SARS scare from a few years ago. Look how far and fast it spread. If those people would have been quarantined, it would not have spread like it did.