129 replies to this topic

[Yinarchy]

My young son had a cat that only loved him. I didn't even like the cat. We lived  in a big house and one night, the cat came to me in a vision and told me it was dead and his body was in the basement, in the cistern. Then he rose and went into a brilliant light. Next day I told my oldest son to go and find the cat's body. Sure enough, there he was. I told my younger son, I knew for sure his cat had gone to heaven.

[libstaK]

Sakari, on 23 January 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

¶ The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 11:6

Yep, all God's creatures will find their heaven it seems

[joc]

Blueogre2, on 26 January 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Animals on the other side?  It's a sign of human egotism that not only do we somehow want to cheat death and continue on, but we want to bring our pets with us too! But as for the question no, I don't believe in pets going to heaven, mostly because I know animals are lower lifeforms that are incapable of higher thought and therefore there is nothing to pass on... heck I am not even certain we continue on after death... That may be an ability that a higher form of humanity will have in the future.

Where does this come from?  Seriously!  That only life forms that have 'higher thought' continue on after death?  The whole idea of any life form continuing on after death is ridiculous, but to discriminate the continuance by 'higher thought'...that is the most ridiculous concept.  If life continues .... life continues.  What does higher thought really have to do with anything other than the ego of those 'higher thinking' creatures?

[shadowlark]

Blueogre2, on 26 January 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Animals on the other side?  It's a sign of human egotism that not only do we somehow want to cheat death and continue on, but we want to bring our pets with us too! But as for the question no, I don't believe in pets going to heaven, mostly because I know animals are lower lifeforms that are incapable of higher thought and therefore there is nothing to pass on... heck I am not even certain we continue on after death... That may be an ability that a higher form of humanity will have in the future.

I think you should head over to the "Are Humans Special?" thread (http://www.unexplain...l) and explain how you "know" animals are "lower lifeforms that are incapable of higher thought" I'd be curious to hear your reasoning.

In regards to this thread, what you seem to be saying is that since animals are "incapable" of higher thought, there's nothing to pass on. So, do you then therefore believe that mentally challenged humans have "nothing to pass on".  i.e. some scientists believe that cats have the same level of intelligence as a two year old. So, would a mentally challenged person with the intelligence level of a two year old not go to heaven? Would a child less than two years of age not go to heaven? I don't follow your logic on this.

[Blueogre2]

joc, on 26 January 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Where does this come from?  Seriously!  That only life forms that have 'higher thought' continue on after death?  The whole idea of any life form continuing on after death is ridiculous, but to discriminate the continuance by 'higher thought'...that is the most ridiculous concept.  If life continues .... life continues.  What does higher thought really have to do with anything other than the ego of those 'higher thinking' creatures?

Higher Thought has everything to do with it, I mean really how can you possibly say that  life is life. Human beings are similar to other animals in a multitude of ways... more then most people realize but, we differ in important factor we can think and understand our world in ways that go far beyond any other creature we currently know of. Furthermore we can imagine other worlds and realms that may or may not exist. Animals can not. They are simple beings at least when compared with us. The very fact that we can sit here and debate this point is proof of how much greater we are then them. I mean honestly when was the last time you saw two dogs debating the meaning of life

shadowlark, on 26 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I think you should head over to the "Are Humans Special?" thread (http://www.unexplain...l) and explain how you "know" animals are "lower lifeforms that are incapable of higher thought" I'd be curious to hear your reasoning.

In regards to this thread, what you seem to be saying is that since animals are "incapable" of higher thought, there's nothing to pass on. So, do you then therefore believe that mentally challenged humans have "nothing to pass on".  i.e. some scientists believe that cats have the same level of intelligence as a two year old. So, would a mentally challenged person with the intelligence level of a two year old not go to heaven? Would a child less than two years of age not go to heaven? I don't follow your logic on this.

Personally I don't know what to think about disabled humans, I would want to believe that they too have souls, but in cases where their is no complex thought I am left in doubt. But as someone who interacts with a person in the later stages of dementia I can speak from experience that after you reach a certain point there is nothing left. Now does that mean they won't have an afterlife? Who knows? Now as for the animals, of that  I am certain they have no higher thought and are unable to have it. In the case of a disabled human they at least could be cured of their ailment and reach their full potential but in animals they are just bodies walking around

[Frank Merton]

Blueogre2, on 26 January 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Animals on the other side?  It's a sign of human egotism that not only do we somehow want to cheat death and continue on, but we want to bring our pets with us too! But as for the question no, I don't believe in pets going to heaven, mostly because I know animals are lower lifeforms that are incapable of higher thought and therefore there is nothing to pass on... heck I am not even certain we continue on after death... That may be an ability that a higher form of humanity will have in the future.

Well I admire your forthrightness on a topic a lot of people have strong feelings about.  I disagree, though.

I don't know if there is an afterlife, but if there is one, animals have it too.  I don't see where they differ from us qualitatively, so there would be no logical reason for their experience to be different from ours.

You say that animals are a "lower" form of life.  In many ways this is true.  We are smarter than they are.  But that doesn't say they don't have their own smartness, and, more important, they share with us sentience.

Sentience is the ability to experience the world and to experience emotions.

[shadowlark]

Blueogre2, on 26 January 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Personally I don't know what to think about disabled humans, I would want to believe that they too have souls, but in cases where their is no complex thought I am left in doubt. But as someone who interacts with a person in the later stages of dementia I can speak from experience that after you reach a certain point there is nothing left. Now does that mean they won't have an afterlife? Who knows? Now as for the animals, of that  I am certain they have no higher thought and are unable to have it. In the case of a disabled human they at least could be cured of their ailment and reach their full potential but in animals they are just bodies walking around

So, you if you died today, you'd have an afterlife, but if someone suffers through dementia you aren't sure that person will have one?

What about a child? A baby doesn't have "higher thought" and is unable to imagine other worlds or participate in debates. Do babies not have an afterlife? What about a two year old who is talking and making up stories? Do they have an afterlife? What's the cutoff point? Anyone over 1 1/2 years gets and afterlife, but newborns to 1 1/2 years don't?

Seriously, please go over to the Are Humans Special thread - big debate going on about humans being "higher" than humans. You'll fit right in with Mr Walker's ideas!

[AquilaChrysaetos]

The problem I'm seeing recur is the notion that the afterlife automatically has some sort of association with thinking level. Is it possible, absolutely. But certainly not set in stone.

[Blueogre2]

shadowlark, on 26 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

So, you if you died today, you'd have an afterlife, but if someone suffers through dementia you aren't sure that person will have one?

What about a child? A baby doesn't have "higher thought" and is unable to imagine other worlds or participate in debates. Do babies not have an afterlife? What about a two year old who is talking and making up stories? Do they have an afterlife? What's the cutoff point? Anyone over 1 1/2 years gets and afterlife, but newborns to 1 1/2 years don't?

Seriously, please go over to the Are Humans Special thread - big debate going on about humans being "higher" than humans. You'll fit right in with Mr Walker's ideas!

Okay, I will take on your questions with questions on my own. What would be the point of a infant having a soul? They have no personality no thoughts and are totally helpless, as a spirit they would be little more then a mass of floating desires and fears  and in all respects they would be unknowable as independent beings. A slightly older child has thoughts and feelings and even a few memories but, they are underdeveloped and are largely just a product of the programming it's guardians have put into it. Only when a person begins to think clearly for themselves can a person be called truly human. As for what age that happens? It varies a great deal, some mature by their mid teens others can be in their 50s and are still fundementally childlike and as such not yet totally human

[mysticwerewolf]

I saw a video a few days ago  about a dolphin that swam up to a dive instructor and asked for help in removing fishing line from it's person.  it squeeked at him then stuck the fishing line entangled flipper in his face and  waited for help squeeking all the while ( most likely due to the pain of the cuts.)

I recently saw a video of a dog that braved traffic to save another dog that had been hit by that traffic, he dragged the injured one off the freeway and  both lived
i remember a video of a dog that went out into traffic and blocked it from hitting another dog that  had already been killed in that traffic.

i recently saw a video of a dog going to church  to morn it's dead master. Every day same place same time no one would feed it no one took it home  no one did more than take pictures and videos.

i seem to remember a story about a pod of dolphins that  saved a swimmer from a white shark ( don't know if it was true or just a story BUT....)

   Stories like this tell me that if there is an after life ( which i doubt)  man kind is not going to be the only creature that will be there. In Fact some animals may deserve it more than many humans ( myself included) do.

Edited by mysticwerewolf, 31 January 2013 - 08:02 AM.