4705 replies to this topic

[TheMacGuffin]

1963, on 07 October 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Because if there was anything else more tangible to judge a persons testimony on, other than their sincerity,[in most cases anyway], then there there wouldn't be any questions about the existence of these ET'UFO's would there?

Unless you believe in the polygraph machine (which I definitely do not).

One way of validating witness claims is if there are multiple witnesses in different locations who saw the same things, especially if they do not know each other and had no communication before or after seeing the UFO.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 07 October 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[1963]

TheMacGuffin, on 07 October 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Unless you believe in the polygraph machine (which I definitely do not).

One way of validating witness claims is if there are multiple witnesses in different locations who saw the same things, especially if they do not know each other and had no communication before or after seeing the UFO.

All very true MacGuffin,...but I think that S2F was referring to the 'bigger picture' of the whole ET and UFO testimony validity genre.   ... [unless i'm mistaken about his point?]

Cheers buddy.

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

TheMacGuffin, on 07 October 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Unless you believe in the polygraph machine (which I definitely do not).

One way of validating witness claims is if there are multiple witnesses in different locations who saw the same things, especially if they do not know each other and had no communication before or after seeing the UFO.

So what do you think about the Travis Walton case Mac?

[TheMacGuffin]

R4z3rsPar4d0x, on 07 October 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

So what do you think about the Travis Walton case Mac?

I just saw another documentary on that the other day on a Sci Fi program called Paranormal Witness.  All the original witnesses stuck to their story, including Walton, while the cops still thought it must have been some kind of hoax or publicity stunt.  

Of course, that was a case of going very far in a hoax, since the cops were up there looking for Walton's body and were ready to charge these guys with murder.  They were all genuinely scared that they would be charged, and I think in a situation like that, the joke would have stopped and they'd have admitted the whole thing.

I disregard all the polygraph testimony in the case since I'm not sure it proves anything, but the impression I got was that something really did happen that scared them for life.  That was the main thing that stuck with me, along with the fact that the police really were leaning hard on these kids and they were very nervous about being charged with a crime.  

I have sometimes thought it was all a hoax, but when I watched this particular documentary I thought they were all telling the truth as they remembered it.

PS It occurs to me that filing a false report with the police is also a crime and one can go to jail for it.  None of these kids were ever charged, though.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 07 October 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

1963, on 07 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

All very true MacGuffin,...but I think that S2F was referring to the 'bigger picture' of the whole ET and UFO testimony validity genre.   ... [unless i'm mistaken about his point?]

In my opinion, I think most of the witnesses are telling the truth and are not lying or hoaxing.  They may be mistaken, but they are not simply making things up out of whole cloth.  I don't think they are all mistaken though.

[TheMacGuffin]

In the old days, many people were very skeptical about supposed contacts with ETs or alien abductions, even though such reports came in during the 1940s and 1950s.  There was a lot of skepticism about George Adamski and his blond aliens, for example.

Did you ever hear the story that he was going to be prosecuted for fraud on federal charges?  He had the Justice Department and FBI after him, but supposedly CIA Director Allen Dulles intervened with the president and attorney general to save him from going to the clink.  The story goes that the CIA was content to have him spreading around stories like these, even though they were hoaxes and information because he was serving some kind of useful purpose.

Well there are lots of stories like that: Project Dove, Projects Adam and Eve supposedly set up by Harry Truman, Group 6 and the Caretaker, etc, etc, but there's no way to really confirm or prove any of it.

[TheMacGuffin]

In Project Eve, the story goes, Harry Truman ordered the military and scientists to find a way to nuke the aliens, just develop weapons to nuke 'em out there in space.  This was in 1949, or so they say, but once again there's no way in hell to find proof for something like that.

Is some of it true, all of it or none of it?  Is it real of just more disinformation from Richard Doty and the DIA and AFOSI?  Your guess is as good as mine.  

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 07 October 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

Poor Travis, if he was telling the truth, those beautiful blond ETs he saw were hiding their true appearance and were also quite unfriendly, if you can believe all these other stories you hear.  Who can say for sure?  Not me.

[synchronomy]

TheMacGuffin, on 07 October 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

In Project Eve, the story goes, Harry Truman ordered the military and scientists to find a way to nuke the aliens, just develop weapons to nuke 'em out there in space.  This was in 1949, or so they say, but once again there's no way in hell to find proof for something like that.

Is some of it true, all of it or none of it?  Is it real of just more disinformation from Richard Doty and the DIA and AFOSI?  Your guess is as good as mine.  

I watched the video and I have to say I think it's a bad piece of fiction.  Too many important holes in the info for that to be legit.
And the presenter mentions working with Andrew Basiago, who is a delusional psychotic who's fairy tales about time travel contain numerous historical errors.  Then he goes off later giving recognition to another conman of ufology, Bob Lazar.
Sorry, but Basiago and Lazar always have redlined my BS meter.  The fact that this guy gives them each a plug damages his own credibility in my view.
Reality is that if that really was a highly classified briefing he stumbled upon on the internet, it's not likely he would get away with presenting it publicly, let alone posting this video of it online.

[TheMacGuffin]

synchronomy, on 07 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

The fact that this guy gives them each a plug damages his own credibility in my view.
Reality is that if that really was a highly classified briefing he stumbled upon on the internet, it's not likely he would get away with presenting it publicly, let alone posting this video of it online.

No, he wouldn't, not unless someone wanted information (or disinformation) like this to be circulated, using less than reliable sources.  It has been that way in the UFO field from the start, hasn't it?

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

TheMacGuffin, on 07 October 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I just saw another documentary on that the other day on a Sci Fi program called Paranormal Witness.  All the original witnesses stuck to their story, including Walton, while the cops still thought it must have been some kind of hoax or publicity stunt.  

Of course, that was a case of going very far in a hoax, since the cops were up there looking for Walton's body and were ready to charge these guys with murder.  They were all genuinely scared that they would be charged, and I think in a situation like that, the joke would have stopped and they'd have admitted the whole thing.

I disregard all the polygraph testimony in the case since I'm not sure it proves anything, but the impression I got was that something really did happen that scared them for life.  That was the main thing that stuck with me, along with the fact that the police really were leaning hard on these kids and they were very nervous about being charged with a crime.  

I have sometimes thought it was all a hoax, but when I watched this particular documentary I thought they were all telling the truth as they remembered it.

PS It occurs to me that filing a false report with the police is also a crime and one can go to jail for it.  None of these kids were ever charged, though.

Yeah Travis Walton seemed utterly terrified by what he saw and for all that you mentioned above I believe he saw something.. Do you know about the Kelly-Hopkinsville encounter?? If so what do you think about that one

[synchronomy]

TheMacGuffin, on 07 October 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

No, he wouldn't, not unless someone wanted information (or disinformation) like this to be circulated, using less than reliable sources.  It has been that way in the UFO field from the start, hasn't it?

Exactly.
I thought it interesting too, that the briefing confirmed all of what is circulating now withing ufology.  Starts right off with the old "extraterrestrials have been in contact with USA since 1947...Roswell etc"  That's what I meant about it having holes in the information.  If it were factual, it would contain things that we could never have possibly imagined.  Lots of new stuff.

If we, that is the public, heard a factual account of the degree to which the US and other countries government and militaries, including all the "black ops" divisions of both government and private sectors have been engaging extraterrestrial species...first we would be speechless and then in the stark silence enveloping the planet, you would hear one helluva loud crack.  And that would be the sound of our entire philosophy of existence being shattered.

Edited by synchronomy, 07 October 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

R4z3rsPar4d0x, on 07 October 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Yeah Travis Walton seemed utterly terrified by what he saw and for all that you mentioned above I believe he saw something.. Do you know about the Kelly-Hopkinsville encounter?? If so what do you think about that one

Same thing.  The cops who saw them thought that if they were acting then they deserved an Academy Award, especially the children, who were obviously scared to death.  In this case, the local cops, the state police and the military police all converged on that farm, heavily armed, but the aliens were gone.  Strange as that story was, I think everyone who saw them that night believed they had experienced something terrifying.  

None one else saw the aliens or whatever they really were, although there were UFO reports in the area from the civilians and police.

[TheMacGuffin]

synchronomy, on 07 October 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Exactly.
If we, that is the public, heard a factual account of the degree to which the US and other countries government and militaries, including all the "black ops" divisions of both government and private sectors have been engaging extraterrestrial species...first we would be speechless and then in the stark silence enveloping the planet, you would hear one helluva loud crack.  And that would be the sound of our entire philosophy of existence being shattered.

synchronomy, on 07 October 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

They have all the MJ-12 and Project Serpo stuff mixed in there, which of course comes from Richard Doty and friends.  If any of that is true, it's heavily mixed with all kinds of lies and disinformation.

From what I know, they have been trying to shoot down UFOs since 1947, just to get a closer look with what they were dealing with, and they may have succeeded on a couple of occasions.  Maybe someone just got them with a lucky shot.  It happens.  I do think they had some wreckage and bodies by 1950 and that it was the most highly classified subject in the US government by that point.

Then we can just sort of extrapolate what happened to the whole program after that, best on the testimony of Ben Rich and people like that.  I do believe the part where Truman and Eisenhower were even prepared to use nukes on them if it came to that, but we know for sure that they were shooting at them quite a bit and chasing them all over the place.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 07 October 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

I get the impression that UFOs generally got a very hostile reception in the U.S. and not only from the military, but even from civilians and police, who are of course very heavily armed in this country. Always have been.  There are lots of reports in the records of people shooting at UFOs or even suspected ETs, like they did in the Kelly-Hopkinsville case.

I don't think the U.S. has exactly been the "friendly skies" for these visitors, whatever they really are.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 07 October 2012 - 11:31 PM.