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Robert Anton Wilson on the federal reserve


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#1    Br Cornelius

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:48 PM



The Magicians at the federal reserve magic money into existence.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#2    Kowalski

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

I wish I could learn that magic trick....


#3    Bama13

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostKowalski, on 22 July 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I wish I could learn that magic trick....

I'm good at making money disappear!!

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#4    Br Cornelius

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

I think its very telling that a man of RAW's intellect was never an advocate for the Gold Standard. He pointed out the fundamental criminality of the Fed but saw that some sort of no-interest baring Fiat currency was a necessity.

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#5    Gummug

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:21 PM

Well I'm proud of you Br Cornelius I didn't think you had it in you to post this video. Thumbs up!
eta: As a friend of mine is always pointing out, the problem with gold and/or silver-backed currency is, there isn't enough gold and silver in the world to back all the wealth. Maybe this is true, I haven't really researched that. Anyway, I like this guy, he makes sense.

Edited by Gummug, 22 July 2013 - 11:23 PM.

Posted Image


#6    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

Been an enemy of the Fed/Central bank system doesn't automatically make you a fan of the Gold Standard.


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#7    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:36 AM

More from the great man;

Quote


RAW: Of course, my position is based on the denial that money does store wealth. I think it’s a semantic hallucination, the verbal equivalent of an optical illusion, to speak at all of money containing or storing wealth. Such thinking should have gone out with phlogiston theory. The symbol is not the referent; the map is not the territory. Money symbolizes wealth, as words symbolize things, and that’s all. The delusions that money contains wealth is the mechanism by which the credit monopoly has gained a stranglehold on the entire economy. As Colonel Greene pointed out in Mutual Banking, all the money could disappear tomorrow morning and the wealth of the planet would remain the same. However, if the wealth disappeared—if squinks from the Pink Dimension dragged it off to null-space or something—the money would be worth nothing. You don’t need to plow through the dialects of the debate between the Austrians and the free credit people like Tucker and Gesell to see this; any textbook of semantics will make it clear in a few hours of study. Wealth is nature’s abundance, freely given, plus the exponential advance of technology via human intelligence, and as Korzybski and Fuller demonstrate, this can only increase an an accelerating rate. Money is just the tickets or symbols to arrange for the distribution—either equitably, in a free money system, or inequitably, as under the tyranny of the present money-cartel. As you realize, a cashless society could exist merely by keeping bookkeeping entries or computer tapes. Money is a primitive form of such computer tapes, serving a feedback function. If we are not to replace the present banking oligopoly with a programmer’s oligopoly, in which the interest will be paid to computer technicians, we must realize that this is all a matter of abstract symbolism—that it exists by social agreement and nobody owns it, anymore than Webster owns the language. Why is it, incidentally, that the Austrians don’t follow their logic to its natural conclusion and demand that we pay interest to the dictionary publishers every time we speak or write?
You have to watch people playing Monopoly, and see them begin to “identify” the paper markers with real value, to understand how the mass hypnosis of Capitalism works. Fortunately, the Head Revolution is still proceeding and more and more people are waking up to the difference between our economic game-rules and the real existential situation of humanity.


http://dangerousmind...c_hallucination

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#8    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Been an enemy of the Fed/Central bank system doesn't automatically make you a fan of the Gold Standard.


Br Cornelius
If the reasoning for the argument against the Fed is the magic fiat money that they can wave a magic wand and print or electronically add endless amounts of, then it might not stretch all the way to a gold standard (of ANY fashion or just one historical example you can refer to?) but it does make the distinction between money that can be printed on a magic press and money (gold) that cannot.

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#9    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostYamato, on 23 July 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

If the reasoning for the argument against the Fed is the magic fiat money that they can wave a magic wand and print or electronically add endless amounts of, then it might not stretch all the way to a gold standard (of ANY fashion or just one historical example you can refer to?) but it does make the distinction between money that can be printed on a magic press and money (gold) that cannot.
Its still magic thinking to believe the symbol (gold) is equivalent to the thing (the real wealth). Symbols are powerful things - but they are not real, unlike real wealth (ie things that we need and perform work for us).

RAW is quite clear about the fundamental issues at work here and see's the primary failing in that those who understand the power of symbol have got one over on those who don't. That is the magic of the Fed. It all comes down to choices about what we want to believe, the Gold standard is simply another form of magic which has been tried before and found wanting for the needs of society.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 July 2013 - 12:03 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#10    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Its still magic thinking to believe the symbol (gold) is equivalent to the thing (the real wealth). Symbols are powerful things - but they are not real, unlike real wealth (ie things that we need and perform work for us).

RAW is quite clear about the fundamental issues at work here and see's the primary failing in that those who understand the power of symbol have got one over on those who don't. That is the magic of the Fed. It all comes down to choices about what we want to believe, the Gold standard is simply another form of magic which has been tried before and found wanting for the needs of society.

Br Cornelius
Money may be abstract symbolism in any form, but he's not contesting that gold can be passed off as money, he's contesting the Federal Reserve Note which is paper turned into money with a magic wand and using that as the basis for the symbolic abstraction argument.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#11    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

If RAW had have thought that Gold was a viable alternative - you can bet your bottom dollar that he would have said so.
His ideas on economics await a mature mankind which doesn't get fixated on shiny stuff or numbers in a bank account, he was thinking of the coming evolved mankind.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#12    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

If RAW had have thought that Gold was a viable alternative - you can bet your bottom dollar that he would have said so.
His ideas on economics await a mature mankind which doesn't get fixated on shiny stuff or numbers in a bank account, he was thinking of the coming evolved mankind.

Br Cornelius
Actually since he didn't say anything one way or the other, I'll withhold judgment rather than betting my bottom dollar.   <--- Hey that's like a pun for this thread.  Or at least a Freudian.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#13    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:59 PM

Nowhere did he advocate gold and he wrote quite a bit on economics, I think we can safely conclude he wasn't a fan.
Here's a nice challenge, find me one quote from RAW where he gives a positive assessment of the gold standard. If it exists it should be relatively easy to find.

The RICH economy is what he advocated, here is an article by him on what that means;

http://www.whywork.o...k/rawilson.html

Much more revolutionary than a discussion of currencies.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 July 2013 - 03:15 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#14    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Nowhere did he advocate gold and he wrote quite a bit on economics, I think we can safely conclude he wasn't a fan.
Here's a nice challenge, find me one quote from RAW where he gives a positive assessment of the gold standard. If it exists it should be relatively easy to find.

Br Cornelius
No sign of him mentioning gold at all.  Already looked.  But gold doesn't suffer from the criticism of magic Federal Reserve Notes in the OP video you presented for discussion and so whether or not he's a fan of the gold standard doesn't matter to me.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#15    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:17 PM

View PostYamato, on 23 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

No sign of him mentioning gold at all.  Already looked.  But gold doesn't suffer from the criticism of magic Federal Reserve Notes in the OP video you presented for discussion and so whether or not he's a fan of the gold standard doesn't matter to me.
It does in that unless gold is the actual currency it can be debased just as it always has been in history.
Gold vs Fiat is yesterdays argument - neither solve the economic crisis we are in. RAW dissects the causes of our crisis and proposes an entirely new direction - the RICH economy. Trying to retreat into the dubious certainties of history is a recipe for disaster.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 July 2013 - 03:20 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson




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