520 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Flashbangwollap, on 20 November 2010 - 06:39 PM, said:

I've discovered many real places along the way and if I hadn't have looked for Atlantis, I'd still be watching re-runs of The Simpsons or something instead of educating myself with history, so it's been worth it I guess.

Hi Puz. Have you read the Odyssey and the Atlantis narrative side by side?

I have read Timaeus and Critias (the Atlantis narratives) many, many times but have only read parts of the Odyssey. I have read The Iliad nearly twice.

Many people don't realise that The Iliad ends with Hector's funeral and that it is Virgil who gives us the Trojan Horse details.

"Hector, tamer of horses". What I showed from this name was a relationship (imo) to Macedonia. Philip, means friend of horses, Alexander being his son's name, and also being Paris' other name says to me the names have some link to Macedonian.

Hector seems to me to be some sort of cognate with Haik, of Armenia, even his name sounds similar, check Google for Haik, he looks like Apollo, with his bow and arrow and also fought Bel...

Hecuba (Hector's mother) may have a connection to Armenia through Phrygia and the name may stem from her side. (?)

[Flashbangwollap]

The Puzzler, on 21 November 2010 - 12:52 PM, said:

I have read Timaeus and Critias (the Atlantis narratives) many, many times but have only read parts of the Odyssey. I have read The Iliad nearly twice.

Many people don't realise that The Iliad ends with Hector's funeral and that it is Virgil who gives us the Trojan Horse details.

"Hector, tamer of horses". What I showed from this name was a relationship (imo) to Macedonia. Philip, means friend of horses, Alexander being his son's name, and also being Paris' other name says to me the names have some link to Macedonian.

Hector seems to me to be some sort of cognate with Haik, of Armenia, even his name sounds similar, check Google for Haik, he looks like Apollo, with his bow and arrow and also fought Bel...

Hecuba (Hector's mother) may have a connection to Armenia through Phrygia and the name may stem from her side. (?)

I'll cut to the point: In the Odyssey - Ulysses gets washed ashore in Phaeacian territory and it is at this point that "The Odyssey" and the "Atlantis Narrative" run parallel (almost word for word) together.

My thoughts are: (Socrates - (469?-399 BC) talking with Timaeus, Critias and Hermocrates. Whilst Plato writes.) Solon-638BC? 200yrs before the Narrative. Implying a good knowledge of Homer by Solon and the rest (close to formation of Greek writing)which places a lot of doubt in my mind as to Atlantis unless it's just a convenient handle for the Trojan war.
Particularly if Wilkens is right in his findings. Did Solon go to modern Egypt former Misr in the Bible or to Normandy France where Wilkens places (Old Athens) then on to Aeaea (Island of Circe)(Schouwen, south-west Netherlands) to speak with the old priest(s)?

Edited by Flashbangwollap, 21 November 2010 - 02:55 PM.

[The Puzzler]

The “Northern” theory instead proposes a fresh approach of trying to fit at least the ‘flashback’ part of Odysseus’s voyage onto a map of the North Atlantic. At first, this may seem odd due to our standard mental image of Ulysses and his bronzed crew sailing the sunny Mediterranean, but this is likely based on modern screen versions being filmed there. (Iman Wilkens’s own personal starting point for his own take on the Iliad was wondering why the weather described by Homer is so rainy and foggy – more like his native Holland than the sunny Med…) With this approach you can keep Troy alias Ilium (hence Iliad) in the Aegean, where more evidence of a Homeric-scale city has recently been excavated (undermining one of Wilkens’s premises, that the ‘Troy’ in Turkey was too small). There are also mentions of the city in the records of their Hittites neighbour, as Wilusa (-usa being the Hittite suffix equal to the –ium in Homer’s Ilium), and of their war with the Akkihiyoi (Homer’s Achaeans), conducted by one Prince Aleksandros (Paris’s other name being Alexandros). (On this, see Michael Wood’s In Search Of The Trojan War.)

Instead, you can postulate a long-distance voyage west across and out of the Med. (Ulysses is blown off course westward by a storm for 17 days, which Gilbert Pillot says would more than do it if you work out the maths, i.e. 17 x 24 hrs at 5-10 knots/hr, the Med being only some 2500 km wide). This puts the story onto a larger world map and would help explain why Odysseus was away for 19 years – he went literally to the edge of the known world. It would also explain Homer’s odd reference to a shepherd being able to make twice as much money doing the night-watch in winter, something that makes more sense in the isles of the north, where the nights can be 16 hours long in winter. Others point to Homeric references to the singing swan, which is found only in northern latitudes. There are also apparent references to tidal currents in river mouths, something the Med is too small to generate, as well as the Scylla-Charybdis whirlpool being dangerous thrice a day. (Pillot identifies it with the Correyvreckan whirlpool off Mull which nearly drowned George Orwell.) Homer’s constant references to the “wine-dark” or “wine-faced” sea also seem an odd way to describe the Med’s famously blue-green colour (the “Northern” explanation for this is to do with eroded sandstone and red earth colouring coastal waters).

There are also odd references in the works of early classical writers, like the Roman writer Plutarch, who in passing suddenly claims Homer’s Ogygia (where Calypso keeps Odysseus captive) is located in the North Atlantic, "five days' sail from Britain" (some have suggested the Faeroes as the right distance here). Strabo, who investigated Homeric geography, thought Plutarch might be right. The poet Apollodorus thought the Odyssey unhistorical, but part-set in the North Atlantic. The Roman historian Tacitus said there was a memorial in the far north of Caledonia, i.e. Scotland, commemorating the visit there of Ulysses (the Roman version of Odysseus). Tacitus also says in his Germania the tribes venerate the Greek hero Hercules. There is also an odd Greek legend of a visit to ‘Britannios’ by Hercules. Odd because he was believed by ancient Greeks to have lived in the 13th C. BC, and to have marked the western limit of Greek exploration at the ‘Pillars Of Hercules’ - the Gibraltar Strait. Others, like 5th C. BC historian Thucydides, doubted the Iliad was historical - that their ancient Greeks forebears with their tiny city-states could have ever mounted a war on such a scale as at Troy.
http://codexceltica....ic-odyssey.html

[Flashbangwollap]

The Puzzler, on 22 November 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

The “Northern” theory instead proposes a fresh approach of trying to fit at least the ‘flashback’ part of Odysseus’s voyage onto a map of the North Atlantic. At first, this may seem odd due to our standard mental image of Ulysses and his bronzed crew sailing the sunny Mediterranean, but this is likely based on modern screen versions being filmed there. (Iman Wilkens’s own personal starting point for his own take on the Iliad was wondering why the weather described by Homer is so rainy and foggy – more like his native Holland than the sunny Med…) With this approach you can keep Troy alias Ilium (hence Iliad) in the Aegean, where more evidence of a Homeric-scale city has recently been excavated (undermining one of Wilkens’s premises, that the ‘Troy’ in Turkey was too small). There are also mentions of the city in the records of their Hittites neighbour, as Wilusa (-usa being the Hittite suffix equal to the –ium in Homer’s Ilium), and of their war with the Akkihiyoi (Homer’s Achaeans), conducted by one Prince Aleksandros (Paris’s other name being Alexandros). (On this, see Michael Wood’s In Search Of The Trojan War.)

Instead, you can postulate a long-distance voyage west across and out of the Med. (Ulysses is blown off course westward by a storm for 17 days, which Gilbert Pillot says would more than do it if you work out the maths, i.e. 17 x 24 hrs at 5-10 knots/hr, the Med being only some 2500 km wide). This puts the story onto a larger world map and would help explain why Odysseus was away for 19 years – he went literally to the edge of the known world. It would also explain Homer’s odd reference to a shepherd being able to make twice as much money doing the night-watch in winter, something that makes more sense in the isles of the north, where the nights can be 16 hours long in winter. Others point to Homeric references to the singing swan, which is found only in northern latitudes. There are also apparent references to tidal currents in river mouths, something the Med is too small to generate, as well as the Scylla-Charybdis whirlpool being dangerous thrice a day. (Pillot identifies it with the Correyvreckan whirlpool off Mull which nearly drowned George Orwell.) Homer’s constant references to the “wine-dark” or “wine-faced” sea also seem an odd way to describe the Med’s famously blue-green colour (the “Northern” explanation for this is to do with eroded sandstone and red earth colouring coastal waters).

There are also odd references in the works of early classical writers, like the Roman writer Plutarch, who in passing suddenly claims Homer’s Ogygia (where Calypso keeps Odysseus captive) is located in the North Atlantic, "five days' sail from Britain" (some have suggested the Faeroes as the right distance here). Strabo, who investigated Homeric geography, thought Plutarch might be right. The poet Apollodorus thought the Odyssey unhistorical, but part-set in the North Atlantic. The Roman historian Tacitus said there was a memorial in the far north of Caledonia, i.e. Scotland, commemorating the visit there of Ulysses (the Roman version of Odysseus). Tacitus also says in his Germania the tribes venerate the Greek hero Hercules. There is also an odd Greek legend of a visit to ‘Britannios’ by Hercules. Odd because he was believed by ancient Greeks to have lived in the 13th C. BC, and to have marked the western limit of Greek exploration at the ‘Pillars Of Hercules’ - the Gibraltar Strait. Others, like 5th C. BC historian Thucydides, doubted the Iliad was historical - that their ancient Greeks forebears with their tiny city-states could have ever mounted a war on such a scale as at Troy.
http://codexceltica....ic-odyssey.html

Wilkens did far more than a comparison of city size. There are also facts like the size of the bay, lack of rivers in Turkey, wide streets, seven gates, many of the towns sacked by Achilles in the neighbourhood. All in all very convincing to me. Have you read the updated version?

The problem I have with other more deeply read people on here is that they accept only written fact. Darn the Druids for their secrecy and the damp for whilst Britain may be green it's also a sure way of destroying anything biological including wood, hide, paper, flax, linen and so on. Even stone degrades with frost and rain doing its bit.

Yes to Michael Woods work but he leaves me just as confused. What I would give to be able to translate for myself.  
And yes to G Pillot's ideas as I have in the past owned sail boats up to 40'X 12'oa. The Med is not too small but too far away from the moons pull where as Britain has the second largest tidal movement in the World.

I for one accept what the ancients say in the size and number stakes. Having read about Homeric works and the way they have been analysed to death I see no point. You have a choice as to believe or not the validity of Homer. I choose to believe. Now if I can find that trigger for the mass movement of people back in 1200BC. then we might be on to something. (and no to Volcanoes as they would have pushed people in the North further away. Unless the fallout and contamination plays more of a part?)

[The Puzzler]

Flashbangwollap, on 23 November 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

I for one accept what the ancients say in the size and number stakes. Having read about Homeric works and the way they have been analysed to death I see no point. You have a choice as to believe or not the validity of Homer. I choose to believe.

Me too.

For indeed, in these verses, and in what he said of the Cyclopes, he speaks the words of God and nature; for poets are a divine race and often in their strains, by the aid of the Muses and the Graces, they attain truth.

Plato - The Laws Book 3 - http://classics.mit....laws.3.iii.html

[Flashbangwollap]

Okay. Volcanoes are back due to Westerlies driving North and making it possible for the fallout to drop over Europe.

First written evidence of the Sea People is, unless I'm wrong, the Sea of Marmara. I'll return to edit this.

[Flashbangwollap]

[quote name='Flashbangwollap' timestamp='1290611182' post='3673209']
Okay. Volcanoes are back due to Westerlies driving North and making it possible for the fallout to drop over Europe.



First written evidence of the Sea People is, unless I'm wrong, the Sea of Marmara.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_Magog_Downs#cite_note-16
The peculiar name Gog and Magog seems to be a reminder of a terrible war and many, often mutilated, human skeletons have been found here. Also countless bronze weapons were found in the region to the north,[4] roughly between Devil's Dyke and the line between Littleport and Burnt Fen (once the shoreline of the Wash).

Compare the finds from Hisarlik  to Cambridge if you will.

This a far cry from the finds at Hisarlik! 75acres = estimated 5,000 - 7,500 people.

Gogmagog hills 675acrs = 9 times larger = 35,000 people.

[Abramelin]

There were 'Gog and Magog' hills in England.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 24 November 2010 - 10:36 PM, said:

There were 'Gog and Magog' hills in England.

...and you were forbidden to go near them, on pain of a fine.


The earliest mention of the biblical name Gog and Magog for this region is found in a decree of 1574, forbidding students to visit the Gog Magog Hills on pain of a fine.[1] Random excavations around the hills revealed the remains of defences at Copley Hill and Cherry Hinton, not older than the Iron Age but the sites themselves are now known already to have been occupied in the Bronze Age.[2] The better-preserved hill fort known as the Wandlebury Ring, which is now situated in a public park, had several concentric ditches and earthen walls, which were kept in place by wooden palisades. It was already inhabited in the Bronze Age[3] and archaeological findings include bronze and iron objects and pottery, including "Knobbed Ware", dating from the Bronze Age.

The peculiar name Gog and Magog seems to be a reminder of a terrible war and many, often mutilated, human skeletons have been found here. Also countless bronze weapons were found in the region to the north,[4] roughly between Devil's Dyke and the line between Littleport and Burnt Fen (once the shoreline of the Wash). For these and other reasons Iman Wilkens believes that this site is of major historical significance; this author, who has been widely ignored by the academic world, suggested in his book Where Troy Once Stood that the Gog Magog's were the actual site of Homer's Troy.

http://en.wikipedia....Gog_Magog_Downs


flashbangJesse: you can make something a quote by hitting reply or put the word quote in these [ ] then to unquote put the word quote with a / before it.
Same to use italics, which is how we often quote something. Use a [ then an i then another...   ], to end your quote do same but add the / before the i.

[kmt_sesh]

Flashbangwollap, on 24 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

...

First written evidence of the Sea People is, unless I'm wrong, the Sea of Marmara.

...

I'm not sure what you mean in reference to the Sea of Marmara so it's possible I'm just misunderstanding the point you're making, Flashbangwollap. If that's the case, my apologies--and what follows may be of no use to you.

It's possible mention of populations that would become elements of the Sea Peoples were mentioned as far back in time as the Amarna Letters, dating principally to the reign of Akhenaten (1360-1343 BCE) in Dynasty 18; we see such identifiers as Sherden, Lukka, and Danuna in the Letters, and these tribes turn up later as invaders of Egypt. For example, in these correspondences local rulers of Byblos and Alasiya were complaining about problems with the Lukki and Shirdanu. However, these were not the invasions for which the Sea Peoples would become infamous a short time later.

The earliest definitive written evidence for the Sea Peoples--at least of which I'm aware--is the victory stela of Merenptah (1212-1201 BCE) of Dynasty 19, the son and successor of Ramesses II. The victory stela dates to the fifth year of Merneptah's reign and mentions his defeat of invading Libu and Meshwesh peoples (two Libyan tribes, that is) together with allied Sea Peoples. This would've been about 1207 BCE. The main "claim to fame" of this stela is its mention of Israel, the first time in all of recorded history the Hebrews are mentioned, but from the Egyptian perspective the Sea Peoples were more notable because they would be back.

That would be during the reign of Ramesses III (1185-1153 BCE) of Dynasty 20. And when the Sea Peoples returned, they came in much greater numbers. That their invasion of Egypt failed is a known fact, but it hinted at what would become the steady decline of the pharaonic state following the reign of Ramesses III. This king's mortuary temple was in Western Thebes and today goes by the Arabic name of Medinet Habu. On the walls of this temple Ramesses III went into a lot of detail in the recording of his defeat of the Sea Peoples.

So as far as I'm aware the earliest and the most detailed records of the Sea Peoples are in monuments of Egypt dated to Dynasty 19 and Dynasty 20.

[Flashbangwollap]

kmt_sesh, on 25 November 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean in reference to the Sea of Marmara so it's possible I'm just misunderstanding the point you're making, Flashbangwollap. If that's the case, my apologies--and what follows may be of no use to you.

It's possible mention of populations that would become elements of the Sea Peoples were mentioned as far back in time as the Amarna Letters, dating principally to the reign of Akhenaten (1360-1343 BCE) in Dynasty 18; we see such identifiers as Sherden, Lukka, and Danuna in the Letters, and these tribes turn up later as invaders of Egypt. For example, in these correspondences local rulers of Byblos and Alasiya were complaining about problems with the Lukki and Shirdanu. However, these were not the invasions for which the Sea Peoples would become infamous a short time later.

The earliest definitive written evidence for the Sea Peoples--at least of which I'm aware--is the victory stela of Merenptah (1212-1201 BCE) of Dynasty 19, the son and successor of Ramesses II. The victory stela dates to the fifth year of Merneptah's reign and mentions his defeat of invading Libu and Meshwesh peoples (two Libyan tribes, that is) together with allied Sea Peoples. This would've been about 1207 BCE. The main "claim to fame" of this stela is its mention of Israel, the first time in all of recorded history the Hebrews are mentioned, but from the Egyptian perspective the Sea Peoples were more notable because they would be back.

That would be during the reign of Ramesses III (1185-1153 BCE) of Dynasty 20. And when the Sea Peoples returned, they came in much greater numbers. That their invasion of Egypt failed is a known fact, but it hinted at what would become the steady decline of the pharaonic state following the reign of Ramesses III. This king's mortuary temple was in Western Thebes and today goes by the Arabic name of Medinet Habu. On the walls of this temple Ramesses III went into a lot of detail in the recording of his defeat of the Sea Peoples.

So as far as I'm aware the earliest and the most detailed records of the Sea Peoples are in monuments of Egypt dated to Dynasty 19 and Dynasty 20.

Thank you people. I get terribly side tracked when researching excuses, excuses. The remark about the archaeological bronze finds is quite staggering and yet no body in England seems to think it worth looking into!? That's an assumption of course but if these finds are just the junk left behind then....

Yes the evidence seems to point to negotiations between the Sea Peoples and those they encounter further south as if they were trying to pull together a coalition of some sort. Not dissimilar to the Iliad. However I don't see why Egypt was so coveted unless they wished a better base from which to raid? Overall then perhaps they were hoping to run all affairs in the Med. Very ambitious.

[kmt_sesh]

Flashbangwollap, on 25 November 2010 - 10:48 AM, said:

...

Yes the evidence seems to point to negotiations between the Sea Peoples and those they encounter further south as if they were trying to pull together a coalition of some sort. Not dissimilar to the Iliad. However I don't see why Egypt was so coveted unless they wished a better base from which to raid? Overall then perhaps they were hoping to run all affairs in the Med. Very ambitious.

For whatever reason these Sea Peoples had been displaced from their homelands. Most of them appear to have come from the Aegean, with allies coming from Libya and Western Anatolia. Why exactly they had been displaced is not definitively known, although it's interesting to speculate based on cormac's earlier posts about the volcanic eruptions in Italy.

But we know that in their invasions of Egypt and the Levant, the Sea Peoples were traveling with their families, livestock, and possessions: they were clearly looking for somewhere new to settle. The Libyans already had been trying for some time to encroach on the Nile Delta, so it's possible the Sea Peoples, allying with the Libu and Meshwesh, were hoping to do the same. They were simply looking for someplace to settle, and it wasn't just Egypt. They were also raiding the coastal areas of the Levant. It's just an accident of history--not to mention the pharaonic tradition of recording any and all successes in combat--that the best evidence comes from Egypt.

[Flashbangwollap]

kmt_sesh, on 25 November 2010 - 07:21 PM, said:

For whatever reason these Sea Peoples had been displaced from their homelands. Most of them appear to have come from the Aegean, with allies coming from Libya and Western Anatolia. Why exactly they had been displaced is not definitively known, although it's interesting to speculate based on cormac's earlier posts about the volcanic eruptions in Italy.

But we know that in their invasions of Egypt and the Levant, the Sea Peoples were traveling with their families, livestock, and possessions: they were clearly looking for somewhere new to settle. The Libyans already had been trying for some time to encroach on the Nile Delta, so it's possible the Sea Peoples, allying with the Libu and Meshwesh, were hoping to do the same. They were simply looking for someplace to settle, and it wasn't just Egypt. They were also raiding the coastal areas of the Levant. It's just an accident of history--not to mention the pharaonic tradition of recording any and all successes in combat--that the best evidence comes from Egypt.

[/They were simply looking for someplace to settle, and it wasn't just Egypt. They were also raiding the coastal areas of the Levant.]

Perhaps not quite so simple as much later we find Boudica followed by wagons containing the women and families of the warriors when confronted by Suetonius.
He was on a hill backed by a wood since his force was too small to offer battle in the open. The result was usual for the British tribes... They were eventually trapped against or tried to defend their wagons and were summarily defeated. They were not looking to resettle to my knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

Read also: The women of the Cimbri, in the Battle of Vercellae against Gaius Marius, were stationed in a line of wagons and acted as a last line of defence;[21]

All through Celtic history (If I can call it that.) we find accounts of these warriors being brave but without any serious thought being given to or development of battle field tactics. The Scots carried on this tradition with their Highland charge.

Apparently the Celts shunned the bow as being cowardly. I can't remember where I read that but whatever they paid dearly for their lack of bows as is testified by the carvings on the temples of Medinet Habu in Egypt.

See also of the Ambrones and their allies against Marius. Here is mention of rising waters forcing their movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrones

Since the Northerners appear to have entered an empty landscape, at least in part, they may have been thinning their ranks as they went and on meeting more displaced peoples formed an alliance. Quite possible imo.

So yes it's likely they were looking to resettle but people don't just get up and go there is usually a reason behind there moving, hence my amateurish digging.

At this point I always say to myself, "Post and be damned." so here it is for what it's worth.

[cormac mac airt]

Flashbangwollap, on 26 November 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

[/They were simply looking for someplace to settle, and it wasn't just Egypt. They were also raiding the coastal areas of the Levant.]

Perhaps not quite so simple as much later we find Boudica followed by wagons containing the women and families of the warriors when confronted by Suetonius.
He was on a hill backed by a wood since his force was too small to offer battle in the open. The result was usual for the British tribes... They were eventually trapped against or tried to defend their wagons and were summarily defeated. They were not looking to resettle to my knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

Read also: The women of the Cimbri, in the Battle of Vercellae against Gaius Marius, were stationed in a line of wagons and acted as a last line of defence;[21]

All through Celtic history (If I can call it that.) we find accounts of these warriors being brave but without any serious thought being given to or development of battle field tactics. The Scots carried on this tradition with their Highland charge.

Apparently the Celts shunned the bow as being cowardly. I can't remember where I read that but whatever they paid dearly for their lack of bows as is testified by the carvings on the temples of Medinet Habu in Egypt.

See also of the Ambrones and their allies against Marius. Here is mention of rising waters forcing their movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrones

Since the Northerners appear to have entered an empty landscape, at least in part, they may have been thinning their ranks as they went and on meeting more displaced peoples formed an alliance. Quite possible imo.

So yes it's likely they were looking to resettle but people don't just get up and go there is usually a reason behind there moving, hence my amateurish digging.

At this point I always say to myself, "Post and be damned." so here it is for what it's worth.

What is the relevance of Boudicca in Britain to a discussion of the Sea Peoples from more than 1000 years before, in the Mediterranean?

cormac

[Flashbangwollap]

cormac mac airt, on 26 November 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

What is the relevance of Boudicca in Britain to a discussion of the Sea Peoples from more than 1000 years before, in the Mediterranean?

cormac

Only to point out that the Celts/Gauls have a tradition of dragging their baggage around with them in carts when on the war path and that she may have been a distant relative of the Sea Peoples.